[MR] HERALDRY -- Kingdom Returns November 2001

[Robert J Welenc]

Thomas FitzThomas.	Name and device.
Or, a sun in his splendor vert and a base invected azure. 
Conflict with the name Thomas ap Thomas, registered in January of
1973.  From our Rules for Submission:
V.1.a.ii.(a)  Bynames of Relationship - Two bynames of relationship
are significantly different if the natures of the relationships or
the objects of the relationships are significantly different.
	"Smythwyf" is significantly different from "Smithson" because the
nature of the relationship is significantly changed; it is
significantly different from "Tomwyf" because the object of the
relationship has been changed (from "Smith" to "Tom").  "Mac
Thorcuill" ‘son of Thorcull' is equivalent to "Nic Thorcuill"
‘daughter of Thorcull', and "Richards" is equivalent to "Richard" and
to "Richardson"; in each case the sound is insufficiently different.
"Hobson" is significantly different from "Robertson", however,
because "Hob" and "Robert" differ significantly in sound and
appearance and are not being used in given names.

Here the nature of the relationships are identical: Thomas the son of
Thomas.  That the registered name is ‘ap' and yours is ‘fitz' is not
significant enough to overcome the nature of the relationship.

We suggest that you add a locative byname to clear the conflict;
Thomas FitzThomas of London, or Thomas fitz Thomas de Lyon, for
example, would both be clear because they have added another element.

The arms conflict with those of Rodema de Rohan, registered in
January of 1973: Or, a compass-star vert.   By precedent, an
eight-armed compass star is too visually similar to a sun to grant
any difference.  You have only one Clear Difference for adding the
base, and our rules require two.

Vladimir Misha Ilich Grigorov.  Name and device.  MO #60044071
Argent, on a bend sinister azure between two bears sejant erect to
sinister sable, three crosses formy palewise argent. 

Since there are certain situations in which multiple given names are
possible in Russian names, I asked Lady Predslava Vydrina, a native
Russian and one of our name researchers on Russian names.  Her answer
(and my notes in [square brackets]):


	OK, every part is iffy.

	But the worst is the combination of Vladimir Ilich (Lenin). You can
tell your
	client outright that at least one (real) Russian finds his choice
offensive.
	It's like calling yourself Adolf Hitler. You may quote me. I feel
that strong
	about it. OK, I'm getting off my soapbox. And my high horse.

	But Vladimir is registerable. (iffy for someone really concerned
with
	authenticity: it's the kind of name used almost exclusively by the
Rurikid
	dynasty, and by the population at large rather late in period)
Pronounced
	{vlah-DEE-meer}

	I would have said that Misha is OOP, but [our standard
documentation] has it. BUT it's a second baptismal name and that's
definitely NO. [The only situations in which you get double given
names in Russian is when one of them is a ‘native Russian' name and
the other is a ‘baptismal name'.]

	Ilich (or Il'ich) does look non-period. Il'in is much better (see
article on
	patronymics in introduction). Pronounced {eel-YEEN}  I still
recommend a different combination. Il'in is not distinguishable from
Il'ich (or any other spelling) to a Russian.

	Grigorov is incorrect. Spelling rules dictate Grigor'ev
{gree-GOHR-yehv}

	[Re the possibility of Vladimir Il'in Grigor'ev] Vladimir Grigor'ev
would do. Two patronymics both based on baptismal (Il'in Grigor'ev)
names don't work any more than two given names that are baptismal.

So you need to narrow down the possibilities.  The whole collection
as it is now is not registerable; you have too many baptismal names,
three if we consider ‘Ilich' as a given name (or if it is a
patronymic, two baptismal names and two patronymics based on
baptismal names).  While you allowed changes, we did not know which
elements you prefer to keep; dropping half the name is more than we
are comfortable with.  If you are currently known as ‘Misha' then
‘Misha Grigor'ev' is an excellent name.

While we found no conflicts with the arms, kingdoms are not allowed
to form ‘holding names' in order to send them to Laurel, so we must
return them as well.
Alanna
***********
Saying of the day: A smile takes you far.  A smile and a gun takes
you farther. -- Al Capone