FW: [MR] New Orders / AshaHito

[Logan]

since i still havent seen the following message show up (after, now, 17
hours) i am resending it.

regards
logan

-----Original Message-----
From: Logan [mailto:dukelogan at directvinternet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:12 PM
To: SCA_Merry Rose
Subject: RE: [MR] New Orders / AshaHito


just a little clarification then some opinion.

the sea stag has nothing to do with fighting as an art.  it is strictly an
order for excellence in the teaching of the fighting arts.  there are plenty
of decent fighters out there that do not teach as there are many excellent
teachers that do not fight too well.  the sea stag recognizes these
individuals.

also the "list" that you mention from corpora for consideration into the
Order of Chivalry (or any Peerage) is very lacking.  Corpora states (only as
a guideline of minimums as some kingdoms require more than the bare dirt as
it were) the following:

1.  Be obedient to the law of his Kingdom and the Society;
2.  Set an example of courteous and noble behavior suitable to a peer;
3.  Have demonstrated support for the aims and ideals of the Society by
being as authentic in dress, equipment and behavior as is within their
power;
4.  Have shared their knowledge and skill with others;
5.  Have practiced hospitality according to their means;
6.  Have made every effort to learn those skills desirable in a civilized
court, including but not limited to literature, dancing, music, heraldry,
and chess.

these are the criteria that we also look at before we decide to exclude
people from our club.  what the pelicans and laurels look for is unknown to
me and since i not a member of either of those orders i will refrain from
speculation.

additionally if we only look for a 50/50 member into our order (again being
the chiv) and we are to include all those in our order and not just the
active Knights our standard will go down very, very quickly.  there are
Knights that i call brother that havent been in armor for 15 years, for
whatever reason.  in all ways and considerations they are Knights, but have
retired from the field.  to suggest that we include their current skill set
into this 50/50 mix is absurd.  if we are going to look at any percentage of
this order as a yardstick it must be from those that are active and
participatory.  as the society continues to grow the definition for
excellence grows with it.  what was once considered adequate for inclusion
into an order 27 years ago has surely changed.

the skill set that we look for can not be judged against the entirety of the
order nor can it be judged against any one fighter.  it is an overall
combination of many things.  we can attempt to set a 'mean standard' for
fighting that we feel a young fighter must achieve before we can consider
him for inclusion, however that is also subject to personal tastes and
interpretations.  the only thing that can be considered is whether or not
the fighter in question has met with that standard.



the idea of lessening the level of excellence for inclusion into the orders
of merit is a bit saddening.  to fear that if we dont give cookies to people
that have tried real hard but just dont seem to have enough and thus these
people will "burnout" is also sad.  i never did anything to try to become a
Knight.  i just tried to be a benefit to the kingdom and the society.  ive
never worked toward any cookie and it is disheartening to see this interest
in creating more sub levels of awards just so everyone can have one, have
something.  it takes away from the selflessness that the sca should have.

if our "requirements" are that high then nobody would every achieve them.
yet, there is almost always an induction into every single peerage from each
successive Crown.  so there are those that have pushed themselves to
excellence.

in closing i will add one thing that i think all members of the Order of the
Chivalry in this kingdom will agree with.  we, as an order, want more
members.  we want everyone to be able to be considered for Knighthood.  we,
as an order, also feel duty-bound to teach anyone and everyone we come
across to aid them in that role.

regards

logan

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-admin at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-admin at atlantia.sca.org]On Behalf Of Malone, N.
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:30 AM
To: SCA_Merry Rose
Subject: [MR] New Orders


Greetings to one and all from AshaHito;
	I introduce this missive so all that take offense easily can gear up
now. I have lived in what is now 9 different kingdoms and have been in
the Society for going on 27 years. First no one thinks their friends get
the recognition they and their friends deserve fast enough. They also
see people getting recognized for what seems little or no reason that
the know of. Both of these symptoms come from not being able to know
everything all the time.
	Each Kingdom has a distinct personality and this dictates the flavor of
events and awards.  IN MY OPINION, atlantian fighters and fighting is
very much centered on knighthood therefore the seastag as a prelude to
knighthood is often overlooked or passed by during a very active
squiring period. I have heard more than one person reject the idea of
submitting someone for the order because "he'll be a knight in a year or
so, why bother". Good or bad is not the concern, its just part of the
local mindset, which can indeed change at a "whim". The order of
St.Aidan seems written for what most Kingdoms use as a fighting award.
The only requirement for Chivalry orders are "the person must be the
equal of his proposed peers with the weapons of tourney combat" corpora.
Considering that many fighters regularly go 50/50 against knights and
that many knights are no longer active. It would appear, based on
quantifiable standards, that the requirements for knighthood in Atlantia
do indeed have hidden prerequisites that are not in the society's laws.
In any case it is up to the members of that body and the crown, what
these standards are. I will not address the issue of Masters of arms
here.
	As to Laurels; corpora states that a person must have obtained
excellence in some area,"SINGULAR", of A&S and obtained a level
comparable to their proposed peers. This order does specify teaching but
does not stipulate open classes or publishing, and it does require the
art be used to benefit the Society. In many Kingdoms the Kingdom A&S
award is used as a journeyman level of recognition for the practice of
the arts. In Atlantia it does appear that the bar for the Pearl is a bit
higher than that for the Laurel in other Kingdoms. Since many persons
feel that you should have the Pearl before you are considered for the
Laurel it would appear that things are a bit out of balance with the
Society as a whole. There seems to be some large concern for the
teaching requirement in Atlantia. I do not feel that this should be
limited to Society Publications or to large classes at University. Many
people teach by example and by private tutoring, which are both very
period processes. But Hey its up to the members of the order and the
crown how exclusive they wish it to be. It seems odd though that college
& secondary history teaches in Atlantia (5) are not members of the
Pearl. They obviously have knowledge and skills and they obviously
teach. Hmm maybe they are not doing it in a manner beneficial to the
Society. Besides, all of these people have awards and fellowships from
the real world, why bother.
	Pelicans and Gold Dolphins are the hardest to quantify. There is a
standard for service but corpora states it is for service to the Society
or any of its branches above that expected of normal members. This could
mean any branch officer would qualify. But it also says that the service
should be equal to the candidates proposed peers. Which means it greatly
depends on how much the current members value their efforts against what
they see people around them doing.
	In all the orders there is a distinct flavor of exclusiveness
especially in Atlantia. This is especially true of the Knighthood. Since
the King decides new peers and is a member of a very exclusive order
himself it seems reasonable that Atlantian crowns are more than a little
reticent to make peers on occasion. I and others feel this has some
connection to typical southern heritage and a tradition of "good ol'boy"
and "gentleman's" clubs, harkening to the days and traditions of social
registers and what not that have always been a part of the south. If any
of you feel that your daily attitudes and activities are not influenced
by your environment and your heritage, well, its doubtful that you read
these long e-mails anyway.
Please remember that corpora only stipulates that a skill, talent,
ability or service be EQUAL to the general members, including those not
currently active, since they are part of the whole averages. It does not
stipulate, teach in a certain way, or at certain times, or training with
certain people, or working at selected things. But then again it is up
to the members of said orders and the crown to decide how exclusive
(root=exclude) they want to be. It depends on their version of what is
good for the society.

I can't put the soapbox away, I think I broke it!

AshaHito
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