[MR] Su:dentu:r

[Robert J Welenc]

>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:55:05 -0400
>To: "Amy Smyth-Wilson" <rowenrhys at starpower.net>
>From: Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc at erols.com>
>Subject: Su:dentu:r
>Cc: <Batcok at aol.com>, 	"Alwynne of Rivenstar"
<alwynne at earthlink.net>, Evan
>
>Rowen Ferch Rhys writes:
>  
>>>I am writing to inquire as to the status of the return commentary
on the Incipient Canton of Sudentur.  I have not yet received it nor
has my group leader.  This is my THIRD request for the complete
commentary, my second request being made in person at the 20Year LoI
meeting.<<
>
>The letter of notification, a copy of which is sitting at my elbow
as I write, was mailed to the contact person on the latest
submission: Susan Grant, acting seneschal, at 404 Pleasants Dr. in
Fredricksburg, on 3 February 2001.  It is not the fault of the
Atlantian College of Heralds that the lady has not chosen to share
the contents of the letter with you.  As for the request at 20 Year
-- I'm very sorry, but if it didn't get written down, it didn't get
remembered.  I left the feast in the middle of the second remove with
a major migraine.  I know there was a consult table, but I have very
little memory of it.
>  
>>>I feel it necessary to review the commentary before resubmitting
Sudentur's heraldry.  As I have been working on this project for a
number of years, I would like the opportunity to challenge the
feedback.  As you may know, the passing of a group's heraldry is
tantamount to its freedom from incipiency, a state which we are close
to achieving.  The heraldry process is one of our major setbacks and
the lack of response from the office of Golden Dolphin on this issue
weighs heavily upon me.<<
>
>My records indicate that the last missive from you regarding
Su:dentu:r was one on 1 Nov 2000 in regards to the translation of the
last set of documentation.  
>  
>>>Additionally, as this submission was identical in spelling to one
returned by LAUREL, it should have been treated as an appeal to the
Laurel office only requiring a translation from the kingodm, not a
ruling on its legitmacy.  <<
>
>If this was intended as an appeal, it should have been indicated as
such.  It was not.  It was very clearly marked as a resubmission,
with a dark pen in a very heavy hand. As our recent presidential
elections made abundantly clear, we cannot go by what we think
submitters *might* have meant to mark -- we can only go by what they
*have* marked.  
>
>Appeals to Laurel cannot be returned by kingdom, and this would not
have been. You are welcome to resubmit this as an appeal, and I will
send it up.  I will even photocopy the documentation for transmittal
to Laurel.  But in the face of Mistress Alisoun's commentary and
summarization, we are certain that Laurel would also have returned it
again this time.
>
>>>Also, to avoid any return, the submission contained a letter
signed by the members of the canton that indicated an alternate
spelling, suggested by Laurel in our original return, that we would
be willing to settle with in order to have our heraldry passed.
Since it is only a dialectual difference, we were willing to make
this compromise which seems to have been overlooked in our
resubmission.<<
>
>I'm sorry, but there was no alternate spelling suggested by Laurel
in the original return.  The full text of that return is quoted below
in the notification letter sent out by Mistress Alisoun. (It is also
available at the archive of Laurel letters,
http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/1999/09/lar.html, if you believe that we
are not quoting it accurately.)  That being so, then documentation
would be needed for '-tor'.  I repeat -- I do not read or speak
German.  I could go through the web or through books, searching for
German words that end in 'tor' and appear to be placenames, but
without the ability to evaluate them, that would be a waste of my
time *and* yours.
>  
>>>The members of the incipient canton of Sudentur, their
Excellencies of the Barony of Stierbach, and myself have been
frustrated by the lack of response from your office on this issue as
well as angered by the rudeness and lack of professionalism from
yourself who holds such an office of important service in this fair
kingdom.<<
>
>I am sorry that you are upset, but I cannot make your documentation
mean something that it doesn't.  If you intend to appeal and want the
original German documentation to appear on the Letter of Intent, I
will put it there as best I can.  But do not be surprised if Laurel
returns it, after evaluating it much as Mistress Alisoun has done.
>  
>>>Since this is my third request I am sending a copy of this letter
to the office of Triton Herald to make him aware of this situation.<<
>
>I believe that Triton is well aware of the situation regarding
Su:dentu:r.  He was present at the meeting in which the latest
attempt was returned.  He is being CCd on this missive as well.
>
>Here again is the text of the letter of notification.  The
commentary was provided by Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane, Metron Ariston
Herald and Laurel Queen of Arms Emeritus, who kindly offered to
review your documentation. 
>
>Since ascii email does not do special characters like umlauts, they
will be indicated by colons following the base letter; that is, u
with umlaut is marked as u:, etc. Words which were in italics in the
original sources  are _underscored_.
>
>Begin letter of notification:
>Unto the Canton of Su:dentu:r, greeting from Alisoun MacCoul of
Elphane, Metron Ariston Herald!
>
>     The College of Heralds of Atlantia regrets to tell you that at
a meeting held in January 2000, Golden Dolphin and her heraldic
advisors determined that your name and device were not presently
eligible for submission to the College of Arms.
>
>Golden Dolphin returned this submission essentially because the
documentation provided does not support this form as a place name, as
required by the return from Laurel.  (I am enclosing a summary of the
translation/evaluation of the documentation which I provided to
Golden Dolphin and which she asked me to send to you with this
letter.)  Unfortunately, the Rules for Submission are very clear:
"All names must be grammatically correct for period names and follow
documented patterns.   Standard grammatical rules for a language will
be applied unless documentation is provided for non-standard usages
in period names from that language."  Since the name is being
returned, the College must return the device as well, even though it
found no problems or conflicts with it at this time.
>
>You have one year from the date of this letter to make a
resubmission without further payment of fees.  We recommend that you
consult with your local herald or one of the many kingdom
consultation tables as soon as possible to determine how you can best
resolve the problem.  
>
>If you have any questions about these submissions, please do not
hesitate to contact me by letter or by email at
silverdragon at charleston.net.  If you prefer, you may also address
your queries to Golden Dolphin at the address in the Acorn.
>
>Your Servant, Alisoun.
>
> --------end notification letter, begin commentary on documentation:
>
>To sum up my evaluation of their evidence, the supporting
documentation does not mean what the submitters think it does.  I
suspect that it was provided or reviewed by someone who is not fluent
in German, or if they read German, is not familiar with linguistics
or philology.
>
>When Laurel returned the name of Sudentu:r in September, 1999, all
she said 
>was:
>
>There was insufficient documentation given that this is a reasonable

>construction for a place name in German and no commenters provided
any. As 
>we do not form holding names for groups we must also return the
device; 
>however, in a future submission we would like to see documentation
for the 
>shape of these doors.
>
>As I recall, the name was documented on the Letter of Intent as
German for 
>Southgate or Southdoor.  There was quite a bit of negative
commentary from 
>the College at the time, most centering on this as a German (rather
than 
>English) name formation.  A number of people seemed to feel that
this was a 
>"dictionary-generated name" and, in fact there is some evidence for
this.
>
>Tu:r is the primary entry and the cognate for the English word door.
 It 
>does not, as I recall the wording on the original submission
suggested, 
>also carry the meaning gate or gateway as that is a distinct term in
modern 
>German: Tor.
>
>On the other hand the usual form for south in modern German is Su:d
(with 
>the umlaut)  Su:den is the masculine plural which does not really go
with a 
>singular noun.
>
>Leaving that aside for the moment, let's look at the documentation
they 
>provided this go-around:
>
>Source #1: This is actually Die o:sterreichischen Ortsnamen und ihre

>Bedeutung by Emil Weinberg.  (They were having a bit of problem with
the 
>Old German characters!)  The title translates as Austrian Place
Names and 
>Their Meaning.  It appears to be primarily etymologically oriented
and was 
>published in 1937 at the height of the Nazi era by the Deutscher
Verlag fu:r 
>Jugend und Volk.  This might not be relevant were it not for the
many 
>slightly less than scholarly works published in that period to
demonstrate 
>the "cultural unity" and the antiquity of the cultural links between

>Germany and Austria.  (One of the works advertised on the back page
of the 
>sample sent me was for Die europa:ische Kultur des Neuzeit (The
European 
>Culture of the New Age!!!).  Very few dates are given and none for
Galtu:r 
>which is the citation the submitter's are using as evidence.  All
that can 
>be derived from this source is that the locale is in the Tirol and
that the 
>author derives the name from the late Latin word cultura, which he 
>interprets as "land that has been built on".  No joy there.  In
fact, the 
>source is witness against the submitters since the author would make
Galtu:r 
>purely a Germanized form by sound from the Latin cultura and it
would have 
>nothing to do with the German word Tu:r.
>
>Source #2: Ortsnamen der Goten, Ro:mer, Franken in Ra:tien, Noricum,

>besonders Tirol by Josef Rungg.  This translates as Place Names of
the 
>Goths, Romans and Franks in Raetia, Noricum, in Particular the
Tirol.  This 
>is a lot more recent (1943) and is published under the auspices of a

>university at Innsbruck, Austria.  He does a lot better at giving
dates and 
>clearly shows the place Galtu:r in the middle ages.
>
>The submitters make three citations from this source.
>
>1.	The first on p. 22 to Turkilinger is a red herring.  To translate
it 
>directly, "The great people of the Rugi and the Burgundians built
the 
>pre-Gothic culture.  With other East Germanic tribes and clans like
the 
>"Turkilinger, Skiren und Heruler, the Rugi inhabited the former
Roman 
>province of Noricum in the Alps. . ."  This section goes on to
discuss 
>Odoacer and it is very clear that the author is drawing on Chapter
46 of 
>Jordanes Origin and Deeds of the Goths which in Charles Mierow's 
>translation begins "Now when Augustulus had been appointed Emperor
by his 
>father Orestes in Ravenna, it was not long before Odoacer, king of
the 
>Torcilingi, invaded Italy, as leader of the Sciri, the Heruli and
allies of 
>various races. " Thus it is clear that the form Turkilinger that the

>submitters highlighted as supporting their name submission actually
is the 
>modern Germanized form of the tribal name that appears in Roman
sources as 
>Torcilingi and has nothing to do with Tu:r.
>
>2.	On p. 126, the citation concerns Galtu:r again and here the
author does 
>give dated citations that place the town and its name in various
forms 
>firmly in the medieval period.  However, he also derives this from
the 
>Latin cultura, which means it also speaks against the submitted
name, not 
>for it, and a lot more strongly than the Nazi-era citation:
"_Galtu:r_ in the 
>innermost Paznaun Valley, a foundation of the Frenchified Walser
around 
>1320.  One cannot view all the occurrences as belonging to the
Walsers 
>although many may go back to them: _Galtir_ Taufers Mu:nstertal,
_Galtiren_ 
>Stifs, 1390 as _Cultura_ Glurns 1317 _Culteur_ Laas.  _Galtir_ eppan
St. Pauls, 
>1220 in Cultura; 1325 in _Cultura_ Girlan.  1288 Jans de _Coltur_
Vilnoss St. 
>Peter."  There are several more paragraphs after that which the
submitters 
>did not highlight which only give additional examples showing
clearly that 
>the name of Galtu:r had nothing to do with the German Tu:r.
Incidentally, 
>the Walser mentioned here still exist as an isolated cultural idiom
group 
>in northern Italy.  There is an article on them at 
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9479/tirol.html#wal which not only
explains 
>the Walser but puts the explanation next to the English into Walser
which 
>forms show very clearly to a linguist that the Old German forms were
highly 
>influenced by French or Romansch.
>
>3.	On page 132, the discussion is almost totally linguistic and
discusses 
>how the umlauted form before r penetrated into certain dialects,
using the 
>various forms of Galtu:r or Galtir or Cultur and other Walser forms
as 
>examples.  None of these offer any evidence that the name could
reasonably 
>be formed from Tu:r.  Again and again, the place name is clearly
associated 
>with the root form cultura and is clearly stated NOT to be a
compound form.
>
>Source #3 is a web page with information on Galtu:r.  This is
essentially 
>newsflashes on the tragic avalanche that hit Galtu:r in February of
1999. 
> More than thirty people were killed, but there is nothing in the
article 
>that speaks to the antiquity of the name or the name submitted here.
>
>Source #4. Liegnitzer Namenbuch.  This is by Hans Bahlow, published
in 
>1975.  The title with its subtitle translates: Liegnitz Names:
Family Names 
>Drawn from Medieval Sources.  This does not help much either as the 
>citations are for Tirpitz which is a completely different
construction.  On 
>page 136 he says "Tirpitz, Tu:rpitz: from the village of Tu:rpitz"
He cites 
>a form from 1288 as Tirpiz and says it is a family name.  He also
says 
>"Tyrpicz also lies in Alt-Bresl.  The Grand Admiral A. von Tirpitz
comes 
>from Kustrin where there is also a place called Tirpitz."  On page
139 he 
>says "Tu:rpitz see Tirpitz."  Not a lot of help and not relevant to
the 
>submitted name.
>
>Source #5. Deutschlands geographische Namenwelt.  By Bahlow.  This
source 
>is familiar, of course.  They cite various locations here:
>
>1.	On page 84: "Do:renthe near Brochterbeck/Ibbenbu:ren is an old
collective 
>Dornithi like Do:ren/Paderborn: _Thurnithi_."  Incidentally, I went
to the 
>Ibbenbu:ren web site to see if I could get any further info on
Do:renthe and 
>could not, but they have a very nice rendition of "Dust in the Wind"
as 
>their background music
(http://members.aol.com/roterpunkt/ibb-engl.htm). 
> Not what you expect from an industrial town in the Ruhr!!!
>
>2.	Also on page 84: "Do:rentrup near Lemgo corresponds to the
neighbouring 
>Dehlentrup, Wellentrup, Wa:hrentrup, Krenen-: Krentrup, clearly a
derivation 
>from -dorp: dor (dorn) is another such so that "Do:rn" scarcely lies
under 
>it.  See Dorenhagen in southern Paderborn and Do:rnhagen in southern
Kassel 
>as well as Mudden-, Sorenhagen!  Thornspich like Leunspich,
Herispich = 
>"Sumpftu:mpel"; Thurnapa = "Sumpfbach".  Since he is writing in
German, the 
>comment about Dorn is obvious to him: Dorn is modern German for
Thorn so he 
>is clearly not talking about a variant form of either Tur or Tor
here.
>
>3.	On page 92: "Du:ppigheim near Molsheim/Alsace (old Tubingheim)
see 
>Bietigheim!  See Tu:bingen!  _Tub (tuv)_ means "shit" (medieval
Latin tubeta!) 
>as in Tubney, Tubbanford, Tub Mead, Tub Hole in England.  See also
the 
>River Tuva: Etuva in France."  Not a thing here to support their
name.
>
>4.	Also on page 92: "Durbach, a tributary of the Holchenbach in
Baden 
>(already in 1342 _Dur-_ near to _Tur-_) contains the pre-Germanic
_dur_ "Wasser". 
> There is a Durbeke in Lippe.  Again nothing here to support
Su:dentu:r.
>
>5.	Also on page 92: "Du:rkheim in the vicinity of Isenach in the
Pfalz. 
> (documented as _Turine-, Durine-heim_)  See Bietigheim!  Already
the 
>frequency of this _Turine-heim_ (5 times, see also Tu:rkheim at
Neckar in 
>Wu:rttemberg and at Fecht in Alsace together with Thu:rken in
Lotharingia 
>where either Turks or Thuringians lived!) is evidence that a Water
word 
>(_tur, dur_) lies underneath here (see also die Thur in Alsace and 
>Switzerland.  See also Tu:rkheim!"  No support here since Bahlow
clearly 
>derives the initial portion of the name from a source completely
different 
>from modern Tu:r.
>
>6.	On page 468: "Sude, A tributary of the Elbe at Boizenburg, from
Hagenow 
>here means like the neighbouring rivers Schale and Schilde
"dirty-swampy 
>water" (see "besudeln"!)  Obvious are _Sudbrok_ at Hameln and
_Sudbroch_ at 
>Hoya.  Also _Sudere_: Soder at Hildesheim, like _Sikere_: Seker,
_Sudeborn_: 
>Subbern, at Sudenfeld in Teck.  In Switzerland one meets _Su:deren_
for 
>"swampy place" (an analog to Bru:scheren, Brugeren, Butzeren,
Horberen, 
>Moseren).  In Bohemia once sat the _Sudini_; the Sudeten (_Sudeta_)
belonged 
>there too (see _Gabreta_ = Bohemian wood), Codeta, etc. (_cod,
gab-r_ = filth, 
>mud).  See also Suddendorg at Ems and So:dderich at Go:ttingen."
Again, no 
>support for their name at least not with the meaning they want.
>
>7.	On pages 481-482: "Thur, Streams in Upper Alsace, with the
Belchen, 
>documented also as Turn (see the Zorn, celtic Sorna), belongs like
die Thur 
>(757 _Dura_) in the Swiss Thurgau as a witness of the celto-ligurian
past: as 
>it corresponds to the _Duria_, a tributary of the Po (see the Sturia
in the 
>Ligurian Piedmont) and to _Durius_ (Duro) in Spain and Portugal.
Also Turia 
>is (for example in Spain) like celtic river names in _dur (tur)_
means 
>"water, muddy and fusty water" validates the equation with _Durisa -
Carisa _
>or _Duronum_ - Lemonum - Cambonum or _Duretia_ - Curetia - Ardetia,
also the 
>river _Duranus_ as well as the river _Locanus_ (loc "sump").
_Thu:r_ in Mayen, 
>_Tur(i)a, Turholt/_ look again at Tu:rkheim!"  Again nothing here
that they 
>want.
>
>8.	On page 482: Thu:ringen: is named after the tribe of the
_T(h)uringi_ whose 
>rule goes back to 531.  In Thu:ringen lived the familiar Celts up to
the 
>arrival of the Germans: also among them one meets a people named
_Turoni_ (at 
>the Schwarzwald on the Main, also in the Odenwald, but also in
Gaul).  For 
>a long time one has presumed, with much justice, the same root tur
in both 
>cases, whereby the earlier interpretation as the Old Norse _thora_
"wagon" 
>(as the wagoneers) becomes untenable, when the celtic _tur_ is a 
>well-attested word for water!  Another confirmation of the
methodical 
>experience that the old tribal names contain water names!  See also
under 
>Bataver!"  Again nothing here.
>
>9.	On page 486: "To:rnich (Thornich) near Trier on the Moselle (902
Turnich, 
>see Vernidi) points at the celtic _Turnacum_ (as in Tournai in
France, 
>besides Dorck in Cleves and Doornich in Holland): see _Turnum_:
Tour, 
>Turnomagus (like Rigomagus: Remagen at "Waterfield"), _Turnodurum_
(like 
>salodurum: Solothurn, sal = "dirt, sump"!, also _Ternodurum_: see
british 
>_Ternuc_).  _tur(n)_ corresponds to _ter(n), tor(n)_!  In Belgium
see _Tornepe_ (a 
>stream name from -apa), in England, _Torneleg, Tornover_, near
Neuwied on the 
>Rhein: Torney."  Again nothing here.
>
>10.	On pages 491-492: "Tu:rkheim, (documented as Turinc-heim)
appears 5 
>times in southwestern pre-Germanic sources: namely Tu:rkheim at
Neckar and 
>on the Fecht in Alsace, Du:rkheim at Isenach in the Pfalz and on the
Rhein 
>besides Thu:rken in Lotharingia.  This accumulation is already a
certain 
>criterion that a nature word lies underneath that one can find no
speech of 
>the Turks or of the Thuringi (as A. Bach) (the fantastic theories of
Adolf 
>Bach on the supposed "insassnames" of this _-ingheim_ construction,
etc., 
>have already been refuted by H. Kuhn).  _Turinc-heim_ clearly points
to 
>parallel forms _Obrinc-, Basinc-, Budinc-, Ussinc-, Otinc-, Ubinc-, 
>Keninc-heim_ in Baden-Wurrtemburg whose morphological and
geographical 
>closeness endures without doubt that prehistoric water termini lie 
>underneath!  So for example, _Obrinca_ in the Middle Rhein,
_Bosinca_ (at the 
>Ohe at Ku:nzig), _Bodincus_ (the Po).  _tur (dur,_ die Thur) is a
celtic water 
>word (as also _tar, ter, tir_ "fustiness, fen"!) See the river
_Turia_ at 
>Valencia, _Turobriga_ in Spain( like Tongobriga, Brutobriga,
Catobriga, 
>Langobriga in Spain, all pointing to a sump, fen or dirty water!)
Besides 
>_Turicum_ (Zu:rich), _Turiacum_ (46 times in France) and the
_Turoni_, a celtic 
>tribe in Gaul and in the Odenwald.  In England see _Tures-mere,
Tures-ford._" 
> Again no support here.
>
>Source #6. Duden Geographische Namen in Deutschland by Dieter
Berger. 
> Again several instances and most lack good dating and relevance:
>
>1.	On page 80: "Dormagen. A city (as of 1969) on the left bank of
the lower 
>Rhein occupies the location of a Roman fort of the near German
boundary and 
>belonged in the middle ages to the county of Julich.  He name 1537 
>_Durmagen_, 1155 _Turremage_ goes back to the celto-latin place name
Turnus. 
> From the celtic rootword _magos_ ("plain, field") - magen."  No joy
here.
>
>2.	On pages 80-81: "Do:rnbach near Rockenhausen; Dornigheim near
Hanau on 
>Main; Dorn-Du:rkheim at Worms - Bad Du:rkheim"  Absolutely no
evidence on 
>dates or meaning here.
>
>3.	On page 83: "Du:ren, a city on the Rhur (near Maas) stands on the
site of 
>a Merovingian royal palace which Charlemagne built in the Palatinate
in 
>774, it became a royal city, but in 1246 came under Ju:lich.  12th
century 
>_Duren_, 774 _in Dura palatio publico_ ("in the public imperial
palace Dura"), 
>748 _villa Duria_ is surely an older name of the Ruhr.  One compared
it with 
>the name of the _Duero_ in Spain, Portuguese _Douro_, and the Swiss
_Thur_ on the 
>upper Rhein from the same root _*dheu_ "to run, to flow".  The
celtic place 
>name _Marcodurum_ "Horse City" which Tacitus knew about 70 A.D. has
nothing 
>to do with Du:ren."  Nothing to help here.
>
>4.	Also on page 83: "Du:rkheim, Bad, a city at Haartrand was given
in 1035 
>by Emperor Conrad II to the neigbouring salic family monastery of
Limburg 
>(for this name see Limburg a. d. Lahn) and belonged later to the
county of 
>Leiningen-Hardenburg; around 1847 to Solbad.  The name _Bad
Du:rkheim_ (thus 
>around 1905), 1559 _Durekheym uf der Hard_, 1404 _Dorenckem_, 1035
_Dorenkheim_ 
>goes back to 946 _Thuringenheim_, 778 _Turincheim_ "residence of the

>Thuringians" and shows a settlement of Thuringians through the
Frankish 
>king; see also Dorn-Du:rkheim at Worms, 825 _Thuringoheim_, 1299 
>_Durrendurckheim_ (in Middle High German _durre_ "arid, droughty"), 
>_Rheindurkheim_ (at Worms), 1026 _Duringeheim,_ 812 _Durincheim_,
and Turkheim, 
>Royal Colmar in Alsace, 896 _Thurincheim_, further Dornbach at
Rockenhausen, 
>1355 _Dorngebach_, 1315 _Duringebach_.  The genitive plural of Old
High German 
>_Thuringo_ and with it the tribal name _Thu:ringe_ underlies all
these names 
>with the greatest probability."  While this disagrees somewhat with
Bahlow, 
>it still does not support the name.
>
>5.	On page 256: "Thu:ringen, a province of the Bundesrepublic of
Germany 
>until 3.10.1990 the German Democratic Republic . . . [various 
>animadversions on 20th century political divisions omitted] The
province 
>received its name from the historic landgravate of Thu:ringen which
from the 
>12th to the 15th centuries was the most important territorial power
in this 
>part of the kingdom and 1030 - 1247 became rulers of the
Ludovingians (- 
>Wartburg, - Friedrichroda) after the Wettin Margraves of Meissen and
the 
>Dukes of Saxony.  By the partition of 1485 (see the article on
Saxony) 
>Thuringen came under the Ernesting line and through another modified

>partition in this and in other native princely houses around 1572
developed 
>into the above-mentioned minor state.  But ultimately the provincial
name 
>Thu:ringen (around the 7th century in Latin _T[h]oringia,
T[h]urningia_) goes 
>back to the German tribe of the _Thuringi_ whose kingdom in the 5th
and 6th 
>centuries stretched between the Thuringian Wood and the Elbe and in
531 was 
>besieged by and knuckled under to the combined Franks and Saxons.
Middle 
>High German _da ze Duringen_ "among the Thuringi", _Tu:ringen doz
lant_, 1074 
>_Duoringen,_ 1073 _Dyringen_ shows the dative plural of this tribal
name Middle 
>High German Duringe, Latin _T[h]oringi, T[h]uringi_ which is first
documented 
>from the early part of the 4th century.  One has compared this like
the 
>-ing- construction (_-ingen_) to one in {th}ori "abundance, mass"
pointing to a 
>German noun, still this remains uncertain like the connection of
Thuringi 
>to the name of the German _Hermunduren_ (Latin _Hermunduri_, Greek
_Ermondoi, 
>Ermoundouroi_, to German _*ermana-, *irmino-_ "great,
incomprehensible" who 
>lived near the middle Elbe in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D."
Again, 
>though it does not agree totally with Bahlow, no joy.
>
>6.	On page 258: "Torgelow, a city on the Uecker in Vorpommern
occupies the 
>site of an Old Slavic fishing village with a fortified city of the 
>Margravate of Brandenburg; a German settlement after 1250.  With the

>principality of Pomerania it fell in 1648 to Sweden and in 1720
became 
>Prussian; municipal status 1945.  The name 1301 _Torgelow,_ 1298
_Turgelow_, 
>1281 _castrum_ (=die Burg) _Turglowe_ gives evidence of its origins
in the 
>surrounding wilderness: 1270 _in merica_ (in the March of)
_Turglowe_, 1320 _in 
>der Heide tu deme Tuchglowe_.  It would go back to _*Turglovy,_ to
_tur_ 
>"Aurochs" and _glova_ "head" and is explained as the joke name of an

>inhabitant "at the Auroch's Head"."  Again no joy there.
>
>------- end Metron Ariston commentary 
>
>Please note that Mistress Alisoun provided a full translation,
overexcited exclamation points by the original author and all.  I
have no reason to assume that she mistranslated these documents out
of spite or any other ill-will toward your group.
>
>Nor does the Atlantian College of Heralds bear you any ill-will.  We
would like to see you submit a documentable placename that we expect
will pass Laurel -- but in the face of the lack of documentation, it
appears that Su:dentu:r is not such a name.
>
>Will your group consider a documented placename in a related
language with a very similar sound? From one of our standard
reference books, I can document  "Sudtorp" as Old English, with this
spelling noted in the Domesday Book.  Since Old English originally
had a Germanic root in early period, this is not too far a stretch
from your  statement on the submission form that you wanted the name
to be "Germanic".  "Sudtorp" has the meaning "southern thorp (hamlet
or small village)."  If this is not exactly to your group's taste,
there are enough English names derived from 'sud' to easily
demonstrate that this is a reasonable element.  We can also document
'torr' meaning 'high, rocky peak' -- Sudtor, southern peak.  Or since
Evan relays to me that you are the southern part of Stierbach and the
element  'south' is important to you, it can be south meadow, south
woods, or any of  dozens of different documentable terms relating to
one place south of another.  Easy to do *in English*, but my experts
tell me that it is almost impossible to find in German.  As I
understand it, it's as if we never used the word 'south' to mean
anything but that big chunk of land below the Mason-Dixon line: *The*
South.  With such a mindset, the name "South Carolina" for instance,
would be as peculiar as "England Carolina" sounds in this example.
>
>We hope that your group will consult further with the College of
Heralds on a documentable name, rather than continue to break your
hearts over this one.
>
>
>
>
Alanna
***********
Saying of the day: Solving problems is easier if you haven't picked
your solution before you start.