[MR] CA and Rapier

[Rupert Gaddy]

There have been various discussions of combining rapier and CA in some
scenarios on several other lists.

I am reposting my reply to the posts on the Nottinghill Coill list and on
the SCA CA list to the Atlantian list since there seems to me some
misunderstandings going on.

If I am in error, would the KEM or the KAM or the KRM please post a
clarification/explanation?



From:  "Rupert Gaddy" <rgaddy at b...>
 >Reply-To: nottinghill-coill at yahoogroups.com
>To: <nottinghill-coill at yahoogroups.com>
Date:  Wed Dec 12, 2001  6:43 pm
Subject:  rapier and archery




Well, I can't escape this thread so I guess I have to comment on this list
as well.

As a CA and Rapier (as well as a heavy weapons) Marshal and participant, and
being rather experienced in both areas (I think I am the longest playing
Combat Archer in Atlantia (unless Tessa has moved back) and I was about the
7th authorized rapier fighter in Atlantia,) like Bastion, I have to jump in
on this.

My first and very important point: ALL CA AND RAPIER COMBINATIONS IN THIS
KINGDOM ARE EXPERIMENTAL......no legal set of rules or conventions has ever
been developed for this, and it is NOT an accepted form of combat except as
EXPERIMENTAL. I am pretty sure the KEM and the KAM and the KRM will back me
up on this for the following reasons:

There has never been an officially propagated and published exception to
the conflicting armor standards, nor have conventions of combat been
developed or published...I repeat: all CA in rapier has been on an
experimental basis in this kingdom (though it has not always gone through
the correct channel to be done experimentally (such as if a single fighter
objects it is not done, permission for the experiment must be obtained from
the KEM and/or the other deputy KEMs and the MIC, Etc)...shame, shame if you
didn't...)

(Actually, I am the one on the other list that raised the concern about
unarmored areas......)

Next point:
Currently there exists a serious discrepancy in the armor requirements for
CA and rapier which can not be resolved legally by the existing rules. CA
participants MUST wear minimal REQUIRED armor, helm, kidney belt, gorget,
glove, knee and elbow protection and padded gambeson to participate in a CA
scenario. While the padded gambeson MAY meet the rapier standard for
non-penetrable material, odds are it has NOT been tested for this, and
probably does not offer the required underarm protection required for rapier
armor.

Certainly most rapier armor, except possibly the "impenetrable" upper body
protection, and gloves does NOT meet the CA standards.

As one of the early experimenters in adding CA to rapier melee's, there was
(and still) exists some concern in these areas, especially with the harder
hitting baldars from legal crossbows. (The earliest questions about this
issue on the other list would involve scenarios in kingdoms where the legal
limit for crossbows is 1000 inch pounds rather than the 600 inch pounds
limit in Atlantia, but which would fire golf tubes or fellwalker
bolts....(but apparently all types of legal arrow would be in use, unlike in
Atlantia which limits the poundage to the lower limits for crossbow and for
bows if both types of ammo are being used....I think the 50lb bow is
probably still legal if ONLY golf tubes are being used unless someone
rewrote the CA rules recently....)So there was also that added factor in my
response there.

The former KAM and KRM discussed at length with me the introduction of CA
into rapier EXPERIMENTALLY some long time ago, prior to approaching the KEM
with the idea, and it generally agreed that the GT would be better to use
for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the "unarmored" areas on
the rapier fighters. There also was a resistance by rapier fighters to go
on the field when shafted arrows are in use, but not the same resistance to
the golf tubes.


I also raised the issue of the mask deforming from impacts, which I have
witnessed (Maganobi) in my role as a rapier and CA marshal. While these
"dents" were about 1/4 inch deep and could be "pressed" out with relative
ease, I wondered about the ability of the mask to stand up to this
repeatedly. Apparently in kingdoms that used the mask only for Light CA in
the past, this never was a problem according to responses on the CA list.


Some rapier fighters will NOT take the field in a melee if CA of any form is
a part of the scenario. which of course is their right to do so. Personally
I prefer the golf tubes to the rubber band guns...at least I can SEE the bow
and the GT heading at me.... those rubber bands just show up and hit
you...LOL

While I would not like to see CA in every Rapier scenario, it does at times
give an interesting twist to the game.

All this said, there exists a serious discrepancy in the armor requirements
for CA and rapier which can not be justified by the existing rules. CA
participants MUST wear minimal REQUIRED armor, helm, kidney belt, gorget,
glove, knee and elbow protection and padded gambeson to participate in a CA
scenario. While the padded gambeson MAY meet the rapier standard for
non-penetrable material, odds are it has NOT been tested for this, and
probably does not offer the required underarm protection required for rapier
armor. Certainly most rapier armor, except the gambeson and gloves, does
NOT meet the CA standards.

Now I guess we need to test the idea of the APD getting hung on a blade and
the damage to the APD and blade measured, then move to testing the same
thing when the APD encounters a quillion....or maybe we can just stick with
golf tubes????

Rupert the Persistent