<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><div>Arrows against steel: A History of the Bow by Victor Hurley was recommended to me by a mundane archer friend of mine. I thought I would put it out to the list. When it comes I'll try to review it for the list. According to my friend he has devoted a chapter or so on about every archer culture from the English longbow to the American natives and mongols. He includes his thoughts on why they were successful or not. (From my own research I would have to say that most were not able to harness the power of the bow in a wartime setting.) I think it will be interesting.</div><div> </div><div style="border-top:1px solid #bcbcbc;margin:5px 0px;"></div><span style="font-size:12;font-family:arial;color:#000000;">On 10/10/12, <span>archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</span> wrote:</span><div> </div><div style="font-size:12;font-family:arial;color:#000000;">Send Archers mailing list submissions to<br /> <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br />To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br /> <a class="parsedLink" href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br />or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br /> <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br />You can reach the person managing the list at<br /> <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers-owner@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers-owner@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br />When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br />than "Re: Contents of Archers digest..."<br /><br /><br />Today's Topics:<br /><br /> 1. Re: More on PVC Bows (<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Baronreynard@juno.com" target="_blank">Baronreynard@juno.com</a>)<br /> 2. Re: More on PVC Bows (Janyn Fletcher)<br /> 3. Re: More on PVC Bows (Jerry Alexandratos)<br /> 4. Re: More on PVC Bows (Janyn Fletcher)<br /><br /><br />----------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Message: 1<br />Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:07:11 -0400<br />From: "<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Baronreynard@juno.com" target="_blank">Baronreynard@juno.com</a>"<<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Baronreynard@juno.com" target="_blank">Baronreynard@juno.com</a>><br />To: "Garth Groff"<<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:ggg9y@virginia.edu" target="_blank">ggg9y@virginia.edu</a>>,<br /> <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br />Message-ID: <ce1b7c57-f19a-42c0-8b6c-c9d9e52986d4@blur><br />Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="Flowed";<br /> DelSp="Yes"<br /><br />Having listened to the diatribe about PVC bows for a while now I thought I <br />would add my knowledge of PVC and what worries me about this material. It <br />is not really a resilient material like fiberglass feinforced plastics such <br />as polyester, vinylester or epoxy. It is not meant to be flexed back and <br />forth thousands of times and WILL de elop stress cracks along the tension <br />surface. This becomes MUCH more pronounced as the temprature of the <br />material drops. At around freezing it is so brittle hitting a piece with a <br />hammer can shatter it. With no reinforcing filament in its structure it <br />erupts with considerable energy. I would love to fool with one but would <br />wear goggles and a face shield when doing so. There seems like there would <br />me many other materials more suitable and in fact I have tried Delrin with <br />some success. Unfortunately all the materials that would be suitable are <br />not dirt cheap like Poly Vinyl Chloride. Another problem with PVC is that <br />every solvent on earth hurts it, and some will melt it right down. Not even <br />windex or other such cleaners are a good idea. Last problem is UV light. <br />It breaks down the molecular structure of PVCAt an incredible rate. 2 years <br />in the sun and its done. You could paint it but most paints that would work <br />are solvent based and would damage the material. Having explored tnis <br />material further I have discovered fiberglass filled PVC which might be a <br />viable alternative and would be more resilient and not so exciting when it <br />fails. All this having been said I have made and blown up dozens of bows <br />and love doing it and will continue to do so. If you choose to work with <br />PVC..........use caution.<br /><br />Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid<br /><br />-----Original message-----<br />From: Garth Groff <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:ggg9y@virginia.edu" target="_blank">ggg9y@virginia.edu</a>><br />To: <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />Sent: Tue, Oct 9, 2012 18:19:48 GMT+00:00<br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br /><br />M'Lord Christoph,<br /><br />Yes, and as you point out, that sort of damage can be invisible. It might be <br />possible that leaving it in the back window of a car for a few days would be <br />enough to stress the bow to the breaking point when drawn even if it is <br />wrapped. I have a little fiberglass camp bow in my dead bow collection that <br />is twisted like a licorice whip, I suspect from cooking in a hot car.<br /><br />OTOH, a bow that is wrapped could have a stress crack we can't see during <br />inspection. At least a wrapped bow isn't likely to spread shrapnel around if <br />it breaks.<br /><br />Yours Aye,<br /><br /><br />Mungo<br /><br />On 10/9/2012 2:13 PM, John Atkins wrote:<br />> As usual, Siegfried has an excellent point here. My only concern about<br />> the PVC bows is the effect sunlight has on PVC. PVC pipes left in the<br />> sun for a year or more become quite brittle. When used to transport<br />> water even under the pressure for which the pipe is rated, it has no<br />> problems. But step on it and it will shatter. Thus a bow, which gets<br />> flexed in a manner never intended for the product may fail in similar<br />> manner. There really is no way to check PVC for sunlight exposure. It<br />> doesn't get darker or leave any tell tail indicators. If PVC bows had<br />> limb coverings much like "horse bows" that would control the "flying<br />> pieces" during/if failure. It would also prevent the sun damage to the<br />> material.<br />><br />> 5 years running the Marine Aquaculture laboratory for San Deigo State<br />> University made me VERY familiar with PVC piping.<br />><br />> cog<br />><br />> -----Original Message-----<br />> From: <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />> [<a class="parsedLink" href="mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br />> Siegfried<br />> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 1:06 PM<br />> To: <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />> Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br />><br />><br />>> However, a new bowyer is another matter. How do we judge his or her<br />>> experience? How many bows have they built? How long have their bows<br />>> been in use? Have any failed? Is this a new bow, or one that has had<br />>> say 100 shots from it (that's roughly four royal rounds, barely broken<br />>> in)?<br />> But that's no different than a wooden bow. Is this someone's first<br />> wooden bow? Or first attempt at a laminated bow?<br />><br />> Or is this even the case of "Archer X drawing selfbow Y for the first<br />> time, and bow Y was tested at a 22" draw length, and Archer X draws at a<br />> 30" draw length ... and ... BOOM"<br />><br />> I've seen those on the range, and I've seen them fail AMAZINGLY<br />> catastrophically, with chunks flying.<br />><br />> And we have similarly no way to really inspect a '1st time bowyers' bow<br />> any differently, as it will look perfectly the same as an experienced<br />> hand.<br />><br />> Siegfried<br />><br />><br /><br />_______________________________________________<br />Archers mailing list<br /><a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><a class="parsedLink" href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br />____________________________________________________________<br />Woman is 57 But Looks 27<br />Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...<br /><a class="parsedLink" href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/507475e06260975cc2b90st03vuc" target="_blank">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/507475e06260975cc2b90st03vuc</a><br />-------------- next part --------------<br />An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br />URL: <<a class="parsedLink" href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20121009/9af1efe6/attachment.html" target="_blank">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20121009/9af1efe6/attachment.html</a>><br /><br />------------------------------<br /><br />Message: 2<br />Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:31:22 -0400<br />From: "Janyn Fletcher" <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:janynfletcher@comcast.net" target="_blank">janynfletcher@comcast.net</a>><br />To: "'Siegfried'" <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:siegfried@crossbows.biz" target="_blank">siegfried@crossbows.biz</a>>,<br /> <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br />Message-ID: <055a01cda654$aa752500$ff5f6f00$@net><br />Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br /><br />Guys we have been down this path already multiple times. I agree with Master<br />Siegfried and have stated my ruling on this subject. Just use your common<br />sense and be safe about these!<br /><br />Janyn<br /><br /><br /><br />-----Original Message-----<br />From: <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />[<a class="parsedLink" href="mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Siegfried<br />Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 1:06 PM<br />To: <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br /><br />> However, a new bowyer is another matter. How do we judge his or her <br />> experience? How many bows have they built? How long have their bows <br />> been in use? Have any failed? Is this a new bow, or one that has had <br />> say 100 shots from it (that's roughly four royal rounds, barely broken<br />in)?<br /><br />But that's no different than a wooden bow. Is this someone's first wooden<br />bow? Or first attempt at a laminated bow?<br /><br />Or is this even the case of "Archer X drawing selfbow Y for the first time,<br />and bow Y was tested at a 22" draw length, and Archer X draws at a 30" draw<br />length ... and ... BOOM"<br /><br />I've seen those on the range, and I've seen them fail AMAZINGLY<br />catastrophically, with chunks flying.<br /><br />And we have similarly no way to really inspect a '1st time bowyers' bow any<br />differently, as it will look perfectly the same as an experienced hand.<br /><br />Siegfried<br /><br /><br />--<br />Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust, OP - Baron Highland Foorde - Atlantia<br /><a class="parsedLink" href="http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/" target="_blank">http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/</a> - <a class="parsedLink" href="http://crossbows.biz/" target="_blank">http://crossbows.biz/</a> - <a class="parsedLink" href="http://eliw.com/" target="_blank">http://eliw.com/</a><br />_______________________________________________<br />Archers mailing list<br /><a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><a class="parsedLink" href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br /><br /><br />------------------------------<br /><br />Message: 3<br />Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:01:16 -0400<br />From: Jerry Alexandratos <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">alexanje@mail.nih.gov</a>><br />To: Janyn Fletcher <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:janynfletcher@comcast.net" target="_blank">janynfletcher@comcast.net</a>>,<br /> "<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>"<br /> <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br />Message-ID: <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:5074909C.4050700@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">5074909C.4050700@mail.nih.gov</a>><br />Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed<br /><br />On 10/9/2012 3:31 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:<br />> Guys we have been down this path already multiple times. I agree with Master<br />> Siegfried and have stated my ruling on this subject. Just use your common<br />> sense and be safe about these!<br /><br />Hey Janyn,<br /> You know we like shooting the breeze almost as much as shooting <br />targets. You might as well forget trying to make us stop talking about <br />*archery*. (There's no dispute about the rules, afaik. People are just <br />trying to figure out to work with the new toy.)<br />regards,<br />Jerry<br />-- <br />Jerry Alexandratos, Technical Laboratory Manager, <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">alexanje@mail.nih.gov</a><br />Macromolecular Crystallography Laboratory, tel#301-846-5335<br />Frederick National Laboratory for Cancer Research<br /><br /><br />------------------------------<br /><br />Message: 4<br />Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 20:29:26 -0400<br />From: "Janyn Fletcher" <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:janynfletcher@comcast.net" target="_blank">janynfletcher@comcast.net</a>><br />To: "'Jerry Alexandratos'" <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">alexanje@mail.nih.gov</a>>,<br /> <<a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br />Message-ID: <000301cda67e$4e457f80$ead07e80$@net><br />Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br /><br />Lol, well okay got me there. Not trying to stop the discussion at all! :)<br /><br /><br /><br />-----Original Message-----<br />From: Jerry Alexandratos [<a class="parsedLink" href="mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov</a>] <br />Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 5:01 PM<br />To: Janyn Fletcher; <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br />Subject: Re: [Archers] More on PVC Bows<br /><br />On 10/9/2012 3:31 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:<br />> Guys we have been down this path already multiple times. I agree with <br />> Master Siegfried and have stated my ruling on this subject. Just use <br />> your common sense and be safe about these!<br /><br />Hey Janyn,<br /> You know we like shooting the breeze almost as much as shooting<br />targets. You might as well forget trying to make us stop talking about<br />*archery*. (There's no dispute about the rules, afaik. People are just<br />trying to figure out to work with the new toy.) regards, Jerry<br />--<br />Jerry Alexandratos, Technical Laboratory Manager, <a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:alexanje@mail.nih.gov" target="_blank">alexanje@mail.nih.gov</a><br />Macromolecular Crystallography Laboratory, tel#301-846-5335 Frederick<br />National Laboratory for Cancer Research<br /><br /><br /><br />------------------------------<br /><br />_______________________________________________<br />Archers mailing list<br /><a class="parsedEmail" href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><a class="parsedLink" href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br /><br /><br />End of Archers Digest, Vol 109, Issue 11<br />****************************************<br /></div></div>