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Ladies and gentlemen<br><br>I have used the three rivers large bodkins and find that they work well against the targets that I make stuffed with plastic bags they also make little more damage against the cardboard and foam backing targets which we use here in Sudentorre. If you want to shoot them on ranges which I set up and run please do so. I think that they look so much better and the additional damage is minimal. The only place where I find potentially significant additional damage is when you hit the wooden frames and they can be a bear to remove. <br><br>I would also suggest that we should be encouraging to the extent possible anything which gives such a great medieval feel to our efforts. <br><br>As one of out past kings said we are at our best when we encourage people to find ways to try things not making rules to stop them. The questions should be: 1. is it safe, 2 is it medieval, 3 does it enhance what we do, 4 then look at the costs. For the large bodkin points I think that the answers are Yes, Yes, Yes at minimal additional costs. <br><br>I would suggest that we should allow them. If you are the MIC and feel that your targets will take too much damage, you may ask that they not be used on your range. <br><br>Allen<br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From: Whitegrifn@aol.com<br>To: loreleielkins@aol.com; ggg9y@virginia.edu; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:25:16 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins<br><br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Greetings All,</span></font></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I have some of these 3Rivers bodkin points,
and while I haven't used them on arrows yet, I have shot some similar period
style bodkin points into a couple of types of (my own) targets without
significant damage, but I have intentionally avoided other types. Part of
my concern has been the potential difficulty of removing the arrow from a tightly
packed target material, since the bodkins I was shooting had sockets larger
than the shaft, but that shouldn't be a problem with the 3Rivers points. I
have found that haybails or target butts made of stacked layers of foam work
well for bodkins. I have also shot a swallowtail broadhead into a
pumpkin, but that's another story. </span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">As for using these points in an SCA target
shoot , I would leave it to the discretion of the MiC and the owner of the
targets. The risk of damage all depends on the type of material the target is
made of, and how much the owner of the target cares about reusing it. If
they consider the damage to their targets acceptable, I don't think we should
prohibit it. The rule says "No broadheads or tips that cause
excessive damage to the targets shall be used ...." . As was
pointed out, these are not broadheads, and if the owner of the target considers
the damage to be acceptable, then be definition it is not excessive. Of
course, if the targets happen to be balloons or clay pigeons, then I would say
that no amount of damage would be excessive. </span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I would encourage anyone who would like to
use arrows of this type to make some and bring them to events, as long as they fully
understand that they might not be able to use them at most events, and that
they are willing to accept the decision of the MiC/target owners without argument.</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Tnek</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>loreleielkins@aol.com<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:06
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> ggg9y@virginia.edu;
Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Archers] Legality of
3Rivers large bodkins</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">My mistake Lord Mungo. I read your
message too quickly, I apologize. </span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> I know the points you are talking
about and they do indeed damage the targets. This might be one of those,
"at the discretion of the MiC", since it is more than
likely the MiC's targets which are being shot up. While I agree that they
are nice for the period look, I wouldn't encourage their use, just because they
can potentially cause so much damage. Now if we had some nice period
targets to shoot at.....</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Anyone else have thoughts on this?</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Lorelei</span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@virginia.edu><br>
To: Archers <Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 8:15 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins</span></font></p>
<div id="ecxAOLMsgPart_2_63628cc1-b5f7-41d2-9abd-9009d6e09a49">
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Lady Lorelei and friends,<br>
<br>
But these are not broadheads, just big bodkins, actually weighing about 180
grains and about 3/8" across. Some archers might think they are legal
because they AREN'T broadheads. If somebody shows up with these on our range, I
am going to take a literal interpretation of the Society rule: "No
broadheads or tips that cause excessive damage to the targets shall be used
...." 3Rivers also sells a smaller version at about 140 grains which
I haven't measured. I think the damage potential would be similar.<br>
<br>
If anyone just has to shoot traditional arrows, they can still use the
125-grain Ace faux medieval points or the equivalent that 3Rivers and some
English vendors offer (so-called "mod-bods"). These have always been
legal in Atlantia, AFAIK. I can't see why anybody would want to shoot such
heavy points with our light target bows anyway. Their arrows would drop like a
stone.<br>
<br>
Too bad in a way, because those big bodkins are really cool points. I have them
on my 3/8" living history arrows, but those shafts are only for display
and looking cool in my quiver at demonstrations.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Lord Mungo, Shire of Isenfir TA Marshal<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/15/2011 11:48 AM, <a href="mailto:loreleielkins@aol.com">loreleielkins@aol.com</a>
wrote: </span></font></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Greetings! Yes, you nailed it.
Target points should be used on archery targets. Target backs can
be expensive. Broadheads are meant to penetrate flesh, not foam.
:-) </span></font></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Garth G. Groff <a href="mailto:ggg9y@virginia.edu"><ggg9y@virginia.edu></a><br>
To: Archers <a href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"><Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org></a><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 7:45 am<br>
Subject: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins</span></font></p>
<div id="ecxAOLMsgPart_0_a7f76af6-38cd-427a-9bfd-e773adb18ea6"><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">Noble friends of the bow,</span></font></tt><tt><font color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: black;">Lorelei</span></font></tt><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"></span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"> </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">The question was raised in my recent TA Marshal class about the legality </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">of the 3Rivers large bodkins. These are very large, and look like they </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">might do a lot of damage to a target. Does anyone have any views on </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">these, vis-vis the Society rule against broadheads because of their </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">potential to rip up a target?</span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"> </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">Kind regards,</span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"> </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"> </span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal</span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">_______________________________________________</span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">Archers mailing list</span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><a href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-family: Tahoma;">Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</span></font></a></span></font></tt><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"></span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><a href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org" target="_blank"><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-family: Tahoma;">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</span></font></a></span></font></tt><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"></span></font></tt></pre><pre style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;"><tt><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;"> </span></font></tt></pre></div>
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