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<DIV>Wow! What a discussion. From rules to my culinary tastes. At 58 years of age I am flattered although I am not sure about the Buff part but the pink stuff is probably true. I also eat fresh venison backstraps. (I once converted a vegetarian with backstraps once. But that is another story) I agree with Cog about the rules. They should be vetted through the senior marshals before changes are made.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colum<BR><BR><BR>Jul 20, 2010 08:22:16 AM, archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,153,204) 3px solid">Send Archers mailing list submissions to<BR>archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR>http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR>archers-owner@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of Archers digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR>1. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)<BR>2. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven@comcast.net)<BR>3. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)<BR>4. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven@comcast.net)<BR>5. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)<BR>6. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:04:08 -0400<BR>From: "John Atkins" <COGWORKS@TRIAD.RR.COM><BR>To: "'Jay Nardone'" <JAYNARDONE@COMCAST.NET>, "'Janyn Fletcher'"<BR><JANYNFLETCHER@COMCAST.NET>, <ARCHERS@SEAHORSE.ATLANTIA.SCA.ORG><BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID: <00a301cb279f$13b455e0$6501a8c0@CoGWorks><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>I have to admit I was set back a bit when I saw Baron Buff eating pink<BR>stuff and saying he actually prefered it! Gotta be those cold winters<BR>getting to him......<BR><BR>Cog enjoying every second of this....<BR><BR>(Colum, I told you I would get some mileage out of this somehow.)<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone@comcast.net] <BR>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:40 PM<BR>To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR><BR>Ha!! We will make him sit at the other bench! :P<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks@triad.rr.com] <BR>Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:09 PM<BR>To: 'Janyn Fletcher'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR>Janyn,<BR>YOU'RE ON!!! Moose tracks. Hard to beat, but Colum eats some pink<BR>stuff he calls ice cream and I call......well I can't put that out on a<BR>public list......<BR><BR>cog<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Janyn Fletcher [mailto:janynfletcher@comcast.net] <BR>Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:23 PM<BR>To: 'John Atkins'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR><BR>Once again thanks for the information COG, very useful and I have to say<BR>I don't disagree with you at all. I was talking with Godai on our way to<BR>Barony practice this morning and I am more concerned about that certain<BR>person you described that needs some solid proof of written rules to<BR>prove them wrong. Also maybe the new folk that are interested in having<BR>the guidelines we all follow. I would never turn someone away who is<BR>willing to learn and listen and be safe. Ice Cream at Pennsic again this<BR>year? Im buying!<BR><BR>Janyn<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks@triad.rr.com] <BR>Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:14 PM<BR>To: 'Jay Nardone'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR>My personal perspective on rules is that they exist only to back us up<BR>when/if we run into an individual who needs a gastrointestinal window<BR>(I'll let you all figure out who really needs one of those but it is<BR>dependent upon a physical position I have yet to actually witness but<BR>have run into many who seem to be able to assume this position!).<BR>Therefore my position is that common sense and a concern for safety<BR>often solves whatever problem may exist. I also believe strongly that<BR>many new archers should be FIRST and FOREMOST encouraged to join us on<BR>the range. i.e. An archer who has a very long draw length such that<BR>they can not find wooden shafted arrows. I'll give them a dispensation<BR>to use aluminum or carbon shafted arrows but not if they are shooting<BR>for Royal Archer or the like. But my feeling is get them on the range,<BR>then move them into our standards while always being safe.<BR><BR>That said, our rules are currently is a miserable state of confliction.<BR>There has been much said and accepted as the norm that is NOT actually<BR>written down or incorporated into either our rules or the SCA wide<BR>rules. I have participated in shoots at other events, i.e. highland<BR>games and Ren Faires, and believe me when I say the SCA is MUCH safer<BR>than these other venues by far! I also firmly believe that a change in<BR>the rules or, as in this case, correction of the rules should be done in<BR>a public forum. What I mean here is we should not have edicts from "on<BR>high" but solutions should be proposed, discussed within/by the marshal<BR>community, then a consensus achieved and the final decision made. That<BR>final decision should rightfully come from the DEM and EM as they are<BR>ultimately responsible. However I adamantly disagree with decisions<BR>made in the absence of this discussion. Situations happen but there are<BR>ALWAYS multiple reasons for them happening. Therefore there are<BR>multiple solutions to the "situations". Selecting the best one that<BR>works for all is the real challenge but the right choice.<BR><BR>As for changes between kingdoms that is not just the responsibility of<BR>the DEM but each individual archer. I recall one day on the range at<BR>Gulf Wars we were about to start a speed round. Enoguy had nocked two<BR>arrows, acceptable in Atlantia, to start. The marshal running the line,<BR>from GlenAhbend, would not allow him to shoot two arrows at once. That<BR>was a difference between Atlantia and GlenAhbend. Out West there has<BR>been "noise" about archer authorizations. Personally I would really<BR>hate to see this. I believe if a marshal is actually controlling the<BR>line, as they should, then a simple run through of the commands and an<BR>equipment inspection should suffice. I always watch new archers very<BR>closely, particularly ones shooting crossbows. It's not that I hate<BR>those instruments of the devil, :-), it's that often new archers will<BR>have a cocked crossbow, bolt on the table then turn to respond to a<BR>person standing behind them. Thus that loaded crossbow is now pointing<BR>at the archer next to them on the line. Stuff like that happens, but I<BR>maintain that if the marshal is actually watching the line and acting as<BR>the safety officer they should be this doesn't happen. Same thing with<BR>archers shooting very crosswise to the range, i.e. shooting at a target<BR>on the right edge of the range from the extreme left end of the shooting<BR>line. Where is that arrow going to go if they miss? Even our new range<BR>definition would not create a safe zone to deal with this insanity. Last<BR>year at the Masters shoot at Pennsic many of us Atlantians witnessed an<BR>act that we considered extremely unsafe and careless. When I brought it<BR>to the attention of the Eastern Archer General, their DEM, he knew of it<BR>and simply dismissed it. In Atlantian the individual would have been<BR>removed from the range. But Pennsic is not an Atlantian war, we are<BR>guests and must play by their rules regardless of how we feel about<BR>them. If we deem them too unsafe we go back to the food court and get a<BR>double dip of that marvelous Hershey's ice cream!<BR><BR>And thus, because I type really fast, I have once again filled your<BR>inbox with my drivel. But let me finish with my thoughts on our rules<BR>and their current state. I believe they should be gone over and<BR>solidified. Those Atlantian rules that vary from the SCA wide rules<BR>should be noted as such, i.e. 3.2.1 SCA rules modified to blah, blah,<BR>blah. That way we don't have to totally re-write the archery rules and<BR>if changes are made either in Atlantian or SCA it minimizes the effort<BR>required to post the change. After these changes have been made by the<BR>TA DEM (it would be their ultimate responsibility), they get posted to<BR>the marshal's list for review and comment. Discussions ensue and the<BR>final version of the rules posted. At that point the TA MIC class<BR>outline can be updated as needed. This is the exact same process that<BR>this marshal community went through with the new range rule. I think a<BR>process like this will minimize the back and forth discussions about the<BR>rules while providing input from all parts of Atlantia.<BR><BR>cog<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone@comcast.net] <BR>Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:42 AM<BR>To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR><BR>COG, thanks for the update I was hoping you would comment. I just want<BR>to say again it is by no way I finger pointing at all, I was just trying<BR>to understand. I was given an opportunity by Lorelei as her deputy and<BR>as many know me I love to help. I yield to all of the wisdom that has<BR>come before us to understand how things are. Not saying they are right<BR>or wrong but going forward I would like to see some changes so we all<BR>are on the same page. I am relatively new to the SCA as compared to most<BR>of you but I have been very active and really had a chance to see how<BR>other kingdoms operate in my travels. I can honestly say I am grateful<BR>for the way Atlantia is and I love being part of it. Thanks again for<BR>the comments!<BR><BR>Janyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:49:04 +0000 (UTC)<BR>From: fenrisulven@comcast.net<BR>To: Siegfried <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID:<BR><2033718083.132395.1279586944880.JavaMail.root@sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><BR><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Siegfried" <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>To: fenrisulven@comcast.net <BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org <BR>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 2:19:59 PM <BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... <BR><BR>"it's the autocrat's right to setup the event however they wish, and <BR>it's their right to decide what activities happen ....In the end, the autocrat <BR><BR>decides what activities happens, it's their event." <BR><BR><BR><BR>I'm not arguing that.? My point is that after the autocrat has decided to have archery, <BR><BR>after he has handed off space to the MIC, after the MIC has set up his range fan - the <BR><BR>autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space.? At least <BR><BR>not without involving the MOL in the decision. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers <BR><BR>Fen? <BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <HTTP: attachment-0001.htm d791abf1 20100720 attachments archers-atlantia.sca.org pipermail seahorse.atlantia.sca.org><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:19:27 -0400<BR>From: Siegfried <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID: <4C45944F.7060802@crossbows.biz><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>> I'm not arguing that. My point is that /after /the autocrat has decided<BR>> to have archery,<BR>> <BR>> /after/ he has handed off space to the MIC, /after/ the MIC has set up<BR>> his range fan - the<BR>> <BR>> autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space. <BR>> At least<BR>> <BR>> not without involving the MOL in the decision.<BR><BR>I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at<BR>2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.<BR>The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this<BR>space, now it's mine"<BR><BR>Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery.<BR><BR>Siegfried<BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<BR>http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:00:21 +0000 (UTC)<BR>From: fenrisulven@comcast.net<BR>To: Siegfried <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID:<BR><1058009322.149837.1279630821739.JavaMail.root@sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><BR><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Siegfried" <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>To: fenrisulven@comcast.net <BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org <BR>Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:19:27 AM <BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... <BR><BR><BR>I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. ?If the autocrat decides at <BR>2pm that they don't want any archery. ?Then there isn't any archery. <BR>The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this <BR>space, now it's mine" <BR><BR><BR>You're right, I see that.? But if safety is our #1 priority, then that structure needs to be changed. <BR><BR><BR><BR>At Storvik Novice we spent an hour with protractors,?police tape, and a laser range finder, <BR><BR>just to be certain the course met the new standards .? Allowing the autocrat to come in and change <BR><BR>our space afterwards would have jeapordized its safety.? What was a carefully?planned course <BR><BR>would have become a cluster. <BR><BR><BR><BR>I know that on paper the Marshal has the responsibility to shut it all down if he feels its no longer safe, <BR><BR>but human nature being what it is -?I think most will try to adapt the course to the new space on the fly <BR><BR>and, under pressure and in?a rush to "make it work",?we risk something safety- related falling thru the cracks.? <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery. <BR><BR><BR>My bad, I meant the EM or his Deputy, not the MOL. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Regardless, you have more knowledge and experience with this.? So I submit to your judgement. <BR><BR>Thank you for allowing me to voice my concerns, and for responding to them so gently. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers <BR><BR>Fen <BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <HTTP: attachment-0001.htm 20100720 attachments archers-atlantia.sca.org pipermail seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 6a1a481a><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:13:40 -0400<BR>From: Siegfried <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ><BR>To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID: <4C45A104.8070107@crossbows.biz><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at<BR>> 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.<BR>> The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this<BR>> space, now it's mine"/<BR>> <BR>> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that<BR>> structure needs to be changed.<BR><BR>No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have<BR>a 'right' to be there.<BR><BR>Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not<BR>give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our<BR>power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.<BR><BR>That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the<BR>right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'<BR>the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.<BR><BR>Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.<BR><BR>Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as<BR>there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat<BR>and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal<BR>will be dealing with after the fact.<BR><BR>Siegfried<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<BR>http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 6<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:22:03 -0400<BR>From: "John Atkins" <COGWORKS@TRIAD.RR.COM><BR>To: "'Siegfried'" <SIEGFRIED@CROSSBOWS.BIZ>, <FENRISULVEN@COMCAST.NET><BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR>Message-ID: <002801cb280e$8b156740$6501a8c0@CoGWorks><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>I think Baron Gracious (never let a good opportunity go unused!) and Fen<BR>are on the same page here, just saying slighting different versions. I<BR>would suggest that the proposed situation, a hostile autocrat, is easily<BR>dealt with by getting involved with them long before the date of the<BR>event. We had a very similar situation happen in my area precipitated<BR>by the new range rule. Where we typically had the archery range was<BR>great because it was highly visible. It was marginal according to the<BR>previous rule but the new rule deemed the range unsafe. (It remains<BR>unsafe because it is now used by the questrians for their activities and<BR>we all know what horse leave behind, but I stray from my point.) We are<BR>now on the other side of the lake in the "back 40". However, this move<BR>was done in concert with the autocrat of the latest event and several<BR>upcoming events at the site.<BR><BR>cog<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of<BR>Siegfried<BR>Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:14 AM<BR>To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<BR>Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<BR><BR><BR>> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides<BR><BR>> at 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any <BR>> archery. The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me<BR><BR>> this space, now it's mine"/<BR>> <BR>> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that<BR><BR>> structure needs to be changed.<BR><BR>No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have<BR>a 'right' to be there.<BR><BR>Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not<BR>give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our<BR>power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.<BR><BR>That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the<BR>right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'<BR>the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.<BR><BR>Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.<BR><BR>Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as<BR>there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat<BR>and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal<BR>will be dealing with after the fact.<BR><BR>Siegfried<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<BR>http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Archers mailing list<BR>Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Archers mailing list<BR>Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<BR>http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org<BR><BR><BR>End of Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18<BR>***************************************<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></html>