[Archers] Atlatl

Tue Dec 4 14:38:07 PST 2018

Noble Friends,

I have been making a 4' darts (sized to go in my Honda). They are 1/2"
poplar dowels from Lowes, carefully selected from the few straight pieces
in each box. The points I have used so far are hand-forged 1/2" medieval
points from The Longbow Shop in England:
https://www.thelongbowshop.com/collections/arrow-points/products/1-2-bodkin-arrow-point?variant=27634567177
. They average 385 grains. Sadly, these are out of stock right now. Jason
gets them in only once or twice a year.

I have also purchased their Tudor Bodkin points (aka "duckbill"). These
weight 260 grains. I haven't tried these on darts yet, and think they might
be too light. They go on A&S project arrows:
https://www.thelongbowshop.com/collections/arrow-points/products/war-bodkin-arrow-point?variant=27633738569
. Sadly, these are also out of stock right now.

I like Janyn's idea of drilling out the shaft and inserting a weight. This
is similar how the aluminum field repair points made by TopHat are
weighted. They have little brass disks inside.

I too am a poor thrower, and have yet to hit a target in the backyard,
though I did fling one over the fence into the woods.
Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 6:55 PM JAY NARDONE <jaynardone at comcast.net> wrote:

> Kryss, you are spot on, but no matter what we call it, it is caused by the
> drag of the feathers countering the much too light front of the dart. I
> routinely teach "science of archery" at University and the same laws of
> physics apply for Atlatl darts as we apply for arrows or bolts or aircraft
> or missiles really. That "kickdown" would be and is (in my own testing)
> greatly reduced when the proper amount of point weight is used for the
> Atlatl points and makes the FOC of the dart proper. Good discussion! :)
>
> Janyn
>
> On December 3, 2018 at 9:00 AM Lthrgryphn <lthrgryphn at aol.com> wrote:
>
> I can see I need to play with tips more. :-)
>
> However, the phenomenon that Janyn describes I have seen in a reference as
> "kickdown" if I am recalling it correctly. I use 23/64 tips for most of my
> darts but I do prefer 190 grain. I also have some big copper bruts that I
> had made by a blacksmith at Pennsic that I haven't weighed, but they are
> more than twice the weight of my regular tips. I like them a lot but they
> are not uniform enough and they don't join to the dart shaft cleanly.
>
> When I throw at practice where I can be careful of my form and repeat
> things easily, I do not have a kickdown with every throw regardless of
> which tip is on the dart. If I throw a group of 10 or 12 darts, I usually
> only have one to three that have a bad kickdown. Now I want to see if
> heavier tips will prevent or reduce that more. When my tips occasionally
> come off, I have thrown the dart tipless and, while it is much less
> accurate, I don't remember a kickdown there. Thunderbird and Three Rivers
> Archery sell atlatl dart points that look a lot like a field point but are
> 300 grains. I haven't gotten them, but I believe I am going to now that I
> need to try them out for comparison. Hummm, experiments will be
> forthcoming... in the spring.
>
> Over the winter, I have some guidelines to write. :-)
>
> YIS,
>
> Kryss
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GEORGE <jaynardone at comcast.net>
> To: deallac <deallac at juno.com>; lthrgryphn <lthrgryphn at aol.com>; Peter
> Darby <pjdarby at verizon.net>
> Cc: seamusmcray <seamusmcray at gmail.com>; archers <
> archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Sun, Dec 2, 2018 2:29 pm
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
>
> So I would like to chime in on tips for ATLATL.. While they are not
> required, the typical archery points are inadequate in weight. 23/64 are a
> better choice because they are bigger in size but in all honesty point made
> to fit 1/2” period shafts (Welsh or Westminster Abby livery arrows) are
> much preferred. They are a much more expensive choice but the little 125
> grain archery points, are just not near enough weight to make the Forward
> of Center proper for ATLATL darts. Just watch when most throw their darts
> and they come off the ATLATL and the back end of the dart dips down and the
> tip rises, this is because the nose dose not have proper weight and
> therefore the dart’s FOC is incorrect. For Aemilia’s darts, I am using 500
> grain 1/2 points I purchased from england. I also drilled out the front of
> the dart and inserted welding rod into them to add another additional 300
> grains or so of weight, this will make the dart come off the ATLATL in a
> much more proper manner and adjust the FOC where it needs to be.
>
> It wont help a poor thrower like me, dont think there is any help for
> that.... :)
>
> Janyn
>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect App
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
>
> From: Peter Darby
> To: deallac at juno.com, lthrgryphn at aol.com
> Cc: seamusmcray at gmail.com, archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Sent: December 1, 2018 at 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
>
> I asked Kryss, as one of our most knowledgeable Atlatl  practitioners, to
> come up with what we should use to revise the archers handbook.    This
> discussion is a good jumping off point.  I feel that there are three main
> things to keep in mind when constructing the framework in which we play our
> game;
>  1. Safety of the participants. (always  number 1.)
> 2. An attempt at being period.  In the case of archery a new modern bow
> can be had for less than $150 while a period bow will run  a person from
> $700 to $3000 depending on what type.  Therefore we allow modern bows.  In
> the case of Atlatl  I cant imagine that the price of wooden darts and and
> an Atlatl would be prohibitively expensive versus ones made from modern
> materials.  therefore on the archery field they should be wood and the
> determination of how period they are should be left to the A&S  entries.
>
> 3.  To me the most important thing we do in the SCA is whatever someone
> has a passion about and whatever a person enjoys doing be it a martial
> sport like heavy fighting or an A&S skill like knitting or sewing they
> should all receive the same respect and be provided the opportunity to
> practice their skills  Atlatl is no exception.
>
> I would still like to see Kryss write up the Atlatl section of the archery
> handbook that we can then critique and put into practice so that MICs can
> include Atlatl  at events with a feeling of confidence that they are being
> safe and everyone is having a good time.
> As pointed out in the below discussion we need to include guidance on
> tips.  Not necessary but if we have them they should be  standard sized
> arrow tips (11/32 and 23/64)   And a sentence or two on targets as well as
> the length (perhaps) on dart length.
>
> In service
> Baron Colum Maxwell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deallac at juno.com <deallac at juno.com>
> To: lthrgryphn <lthrgryphn at aol.com>
> Cc: ldursus <ldursus at gmail.com>; seamusmcray <seamusmcray at gmail.com>;
> pjdarby <pjdarby at verizon.net>; archers <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 30, 2018 11:19 am
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
>
> I have one quick comment to add to this.  23/64 tips seem to be the more
> common tip that I have seen, rather than 11/32, but either can work.
>
> Dealla
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: Lthrgryphn <lthrgryphn at aol.com>
> To: ldursus at gmail.com, seamusmcray at gmail.com
> Cc: pjdarby at verizon.net, archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 16:12:09 +0000 (UTC)
>
> From an avid atlatlist, thanks to everyone for all the comments. At WOW,
> Colin asked me to write up some things about atlatls but this discussion
> has jumped the gun on that.
>
> I would be cautious with the language about the atlatls. "Atlatls and
> darts should be constructed to resemble materials and equipment that
> existed in-period."  Many people who own and throw with atlatls have no
> idea if their atlatl is a period design or not. I would include many
> archery marshals in that category, too. Almost all of the atlatls from
> Thunderbird Atlatl, Three Rivers, and many other sources are modern atlatl
> designs - not period. I do not believe that they should be excluded from
> participating any more than someone with a fiberglass bow should be
> excluded from archery. Most of the atlatls I have seen are made from period
> materials, but not all of them. What we need to avoid is excessively
> engineered design, like the atlatls that have dart rests that do not even
> force the user to line up the atlatl with the dart. The dart can
> effectively just be dropped on it and flung. All dart rests except those
> from New Guinea and Peru are not period, but they allow people to enjoy the
> sport more easily. I would not advocate that we disallow them.
>
> Just like in archery, I do not recommend that we allow carbon fiber darts,
> except in the situations already suggested. Darts do not need to be
> straight and they can have many nicks and dings in them before they are
> actually unsound. The fletchings are also pretty much optional. Darts fly
> better with fletching, but especially for short distances they fly fine
> without them. On a windy day, fletching can be a serious detriment to an
> atlatl dart.
>
> If it has a tip, maybe that tip should be attached securely. On the other
> hand, I have some bamboo darts with horn tips that the tip is held on only
> by a wrapped cord. I am not sure I would call that a secure attachment
> because it will move if firmly twisted by someone's hand, but I will
> happily fling them downrange. Since they are only thrown for distance, the
> loose tip is not a problem. So does every dart need a tip firmly attached?
> I  am not sure of that.
>
> We also need very much to talk about targets. The concept that atlatl
> darts will tear up your targets is widespread and not entirely false, but
> it is much less of a problem than it is made out to be. From all my
> experience with atlatls in Atlantia, in Ealdormere, at Pennsic, in
> Aethelmearc, I have met only two people who have actually seen an atlatl
> dart make a tear in a target. If the target backing is soft and the target
> face is only paper, it is very possible for the dart to tear it if the dart
> strikes and then the end of the dart falls. How many times do we make our
> target backing out of soft material? I don't see it very often. The size of
> the tip can be a factor. I recommend that broadheads, including very period
> stone points be restricted. I recommend standard archery tips for an 11/23
> shaft. I neck down my dart shafts to fit this point and rarely do I
> penetrate the target more. If it does, the largest dart I have is 1/2 inch
> thick. If we ever had 30 or even 10 people throwing darts at a small target
> and every one of them hit and sunk in past the point to the 1/2 inch thick
> shaft, then I could see that that would be a problem. We rarely get even
> two or three people throwing at an event.
>
> The biggest problem I have seen is having targets that are not robust
> enough to support an atlatl dart sticking out from them. But that is a
> potential problem for the archers, too, if a great many arrows are shot
> into a target, the weight could cause it to fall. A short term solution to
> this that I proposed at WOW was to restrict atlatls to flinging 4-foot,
> lightweight darts. That is not a great solution, but it is a compromise.
> The 4-foot dart is slightly heavier than an arrow, but it doesn't have the
> weight and more importantly it doesn't have the length and leverage to pull
> hard down on the target like a 6-foot dart does. But it is not a good
> solution for atlatlists because 4-foot darts do not fly anywhere nearly as
> good as 6-foot darts do.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kryss Kostarev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chip Miles <ldursus at gmail.com>
> To: JAMES FRAILEY <seamusmcray at gmail.com>
> Cc: pjdarby <pjdarby at verizon.net>; archers <
> archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 30, 2018 9:42 am
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
>
> This is Discussion points, not me downing anyone.
>
> My only issue is with your descriptions.
> As a rules lawyer in another life, "  Atlatls and darts should be  constructed
> to resemble materials and equipment that existed in-period " This leaves
> LOTS of "Wiggle Room". EG: IF I can Find shafts that "Look Like Wood" I'm
> good?
> Whereas if you reduce it to " Atlatls and darts should be  constructed of
> materials that existed in-period" it works the other way. EG is this wooden
> shaft carved, lathed, or run through a dowel jig.
> But, I think you will have fewer folks calling you out on your words with
> the latter.
>
> "Darts should be reasonably straight with fletches of feathers, paper, or
> leather. Points are optional, but if used must be securely fastened to the
> dart."
> In archery, we rely on straight arrows. In Atlatl the warp can be an
> advantage or a disadvantage depending on how you align the dart with the
> atlatl. A curved or warped dart can allow the user to "know" their dart
> flexion. If flexion occurs it's good to know what direction it's going to
> happen. ALL materials have a side that gives more. Knowing this can create
> better force application creating a more reliable throw, and Less breakage
> overall. Atlatl works a lot like the actions described in archers paradox,
> the arrow bends when force is applied. in the example of carbon fiber this
> a worry because they are shooting arrows with a lot more force and speed,
> and going against the flexion would result in exploding arrows. In the case
> of atlatls, there is more force being applied to a greater amount of mass,
> So a thrower knowing which way the dart flexes is a good thing.
> Now that said, a dart that looks more like a boomerang would be bad and
> would cause another set of issues.
> A Little is good, a lot is bad.
> Points are good, "they extend the life of the dart", they also are a
> little weight on the front of the dart.
>
> YIS
> Ursus Apicius
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 10:52 AM JAMES FRAILEY < seamusmcray at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Greetings Atlantian Archers. It has come to my attention that there are
> very little guidelines about Atlatl and equipment documented. Also I see
> that there is some marketing of Atlatl equipment from such sources as
> 3-River Archery. (
> https://www.3riversarchery.com/carbon-express-atlatl-kit.html)
>
> My opinion is I am OK with modern material for Atlatls but I am not OK
> with modern materials such as carbon darts. I view this the same way we
> allow modern material for bows and not arrows. My suggestion below for our
> Target Archery Handbook.
>
> " Atlatl
> • Inspection of equipment will in general be the same as for archery
> equipment.
> • Atlatls and darts should be constructed to resemble materials and
> equipment that existed in-period. Natural materials like wood and bamboo
> are recommended. In the Kingdom of Atlantia, darts cannot be used that are
> made of carbon fiber or any other modern materials.
> • Darts should be reasonably straight with fletches of feathers, paper, or
> leather. Points are optional, but if used must be securely fastened to the
> dart.
> • The atlatl itself will be smooth and free of cracks, warps, and bends so
> as not to endanger the user or others."
>
> So, since I am not King, Queen or the Earl Marshal I am not the last say
> in this. I welcome all reasonable dialog in regards to crafting guidelines.
> Please contribute especially those with expertise with this equipment.peter
>
> I look forward to some dialog over this matter. Thank you.
>
>
> In service,
>
> Baron Seamus McRay
> Master of the Pelican
> Atlantia Archery DEM
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