[Archers] Atlatl

Sun Dec 2 11:29:36 PST 2018

So I would like to chime in on tips for ATLATL.. While they are not required, the typical archery points are inadequate in weight. 23/64 are a better choice because they are bigger in size but in all honesty point made to fit 1/2” period shafts (Welsh or Westminster Abby livery arrows) are much preferred. They are a much more expensive choice but the little 125 grain archery points, are just not near enough weight to make the Forward of Center proper for ATLATL darts. Just watch when most throw their darts and they come off the ATLATL and the back end of the dart dips down and the tip rises, this is because the nose dose not have proper weight and therefore the dart’s FOC is incorrect. For Aemilia’s darts, I am using 500 grain 1/2 points I purchased from england. I also drilled out the front of the dart and inserted welding rod into them to add another additional 300 grains or so of weight, this will make the dart come off the ATLATL in a much more proper manner and adjust the FOC where it needs to be.

It wont help a poor thrower like me, dont think there is any help for that.... :)

Janyn

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------ Original Message ------

From: Peter Darby
To: deallac at juno.com, lthrgryphn at aol.com
Cc: seamusmcray at gmail.com, archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Sent: December 1, 2018 at 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl

I asked Kryss, as one of our most knowledgeable Atlatlpractitioners, to come up with what we should use to revise the archers handbook.This discussion is a good jumping off point.I feel that there are three main things to keep in mind when constructing the framework in which we play our game;
1. Safety of the participants. (alwaysnumber 1.)
2. An attempt at being period.In the case of archery a new modern bowcan be had for less than $150 while a period bow will runa person from$700 to $3000 depending on what type.Therefore we allow modern bows.In the case of AtlatlI cant imagine that the price of wooden darts and and an Atlatl would be prohibitively expensive versus ones made from modern materials.therefore on the archery field they should be wood and the determination of how period they are should be left to the A&Sentries.
3.To me the most important thing we do in the SCA is whatever someone has a passion about and whatever a person enjoys doing be it a martial sport like heavy fighting or an A&S skill like knitting or sewing they should all receive the same respect and be provided the opportunity topractice their skillsAtlatl is no exception.

I would still like to see Kryss write up the Atlatl section of the archery handbook that we can then critique and put into practice so that MICs can include Atlatlat events with a feeling of confidence that they are being safe and everyone is having a good time.
As pointed out in the below discussion we need to include guidance on tips.Not necessary but if we have them they should bestandard sized arrow tips (11/32 and 23/64)And a sentence or two on targets as well as the length (perhaps) on dart length.

In service
Baron Colum Maxwell

-----Original Message-----
From: deallac at juno.com<deallac at juno.com>
To: lthrgryphn<lthrgryphn at aol.com>
Cc: ldursus<ldursus at gmail.com>; seamusmcray<seamusmcray at gmail.com>; pjdarby<pjdarby at verizon.net>; archers<archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 30, 2018 11:19 am
Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl

I have one quick comment to add to this.23/64 tips seem to be the more common tip that I have seen, rather than 11/32, but either can work.

Dealla

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Lthrgryphn<lthrgryphn at aol.com>
To: ldursus at gmail.com, seamusmcray at gmail.com
Cc: pjdarby at verizon.net, archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 16:12:09 +0000 (UTC)

Froman avid atlatlist, thanks to everyone for all the comments.At WOW, Colin asked me to write up some things about atlatls but this discussion has jumped the gun on that.

I would be cautious with the language about the atlatls."Atlatls and darts should beconstructed to resemble materials and equipment that existed in-period."Many people who own and throw with atlatls have no idea if their atlatl is a period design or not. I would include many archery marshals in that category, too. Almost all of the atlatls from Thunderbird Atlatl, Three Rivers, and many other sources are modern atlatl designs - not period. I do not believe that they should be excluded from participating any more than someone with a fiberglass bow should be excluded from archery. Most of the atlatls I have seen are made from period materials, but not all of them. What we need to avoid is excessively engineered design, like the atlatls that have dart rests that do not even force the user to line up the atlatl with the dart. The dart can effectively just be dropped on it and flung. All dart rests except those from New Guinea and Peru are not period, but they allow people to enjoy the sport more easily. I would not advocate that we disallow them.

Just like in archery, I do not recommend that we allow carbon fiber darts, except in the situations already suggested. Darts do not need to be straight and they can have many nicks and dings in them before they are actually unsound. The fletchings are also pretty much optional. Darts fly better with fletching, but especially for short distances they fly fine without them. On a windy day, fletching can be a serious detriment to an atlatl dart.

If it has a tip, maybe that tip should be attached securely. On the other hand, I have some bamboo darts with horn tips that the tip is held on only by a wrapped cord. I am not sure I would call that a secure attachment because it will move if firmly twisted by someone's hand, but I will happily fling them downrange. Since they are only thrown for distance, the loose tip is not a problem. So does every dart need a tip firmly attached? Iam not sure of that.

We also need very much to talk about targets. The concept that atlatl darts will tear up your targets is widespread and not entirely false, but it is much less of a problem than it is made out to be. From all my experience with atlatls in Atlantia, in Ealdormere, at Pennsic, in Aethelmearc, I have met only two people who have actually seen an atlatl dart make a tear in a target. If the target backing is soft and the target face is only paper, it is very possible for the dart to tear it if the dart strikes and then the end of the dart falls. How many times do we make our target backing out of soft material? I don't see it very often. The size of the tip can be a factor. I recommend that broadheads, including very period stone points be restricted. I recommend standard archery tips for an 11/23 shaft. I neck down my dart shafts to fit this point and rarely do I penetrate the target more. If it does, the largest dart I have is 1/2 inch thick. If we ever had 30 or even 10 people throwingdarts at a small target and every one of them hit and sunk in past the point to the 1/2 inch thick shaft, then I could see that that would be a problem. We rarely get even two or three people throwing at an event.

The biggest problem I have seen is having targets that are not robust enough to support an atlatl dart sticking out from them. But that is a potential problem for the archers, too, if a great many arrows are shot into a target, the weight could cause it to fall. A short term solution to this that I proposed at WOW was to restrict atlatls to flinging 4-foot, lightweight darts. That is not a great solution, but it is a compromise. The 4-foot dart is slightly heavier than an arrow, but it doesn't have the weight and more importantly it doesn't have the length and leverage to pull hard down on the target like a 6-foot dart does. But it is not a good solution for atlatlists because 4-foot darts do not fly anywhere nearly as good as 6-foot darts do.
Thanks,

Kryss Kostarev
-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Miles<ldursus at gmail.com>
To: JAMES FRAILEY<seamusmcray at gmail.com>
Cc: pjdarby<pjdarby at verizon.net>; archers<archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Tue, Oct 30, 2018 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [Archers] Atlatl

This is Discussion points, not me downing anyone.

My only issue is with your descriptions.
As a ruleslawyer in another life, "Atlatls and darts should beconstructed to resemble materials and equipment that existed in-period" This leaves LOTS of "WiggleRoom". EG: IF I can Find shafts that "Look Like Wood" I'm good?
Whereas if you reduce it to "Atlatls and darts should beconstructedof materials that existed in-period" it works the other way. EG is this wooden shaft carved, lathed, or run through a dowel jig.
But, I think you will have fewer folks calling you out on your words with the latter.

"Darts should bereasonably straightwith fletches of feathers, paper, or leather. Points are optional, but if used must be securely fastened to the dart."
In archery, we rely on straight arrows. In Atlatl the warp can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on how you align the dart with the atlatl. A curved or warped dart can allow the user to "know" their dart flexion. If flexion occurs it's good to know what direction it's going to happen. ALL materialshave a side that gives more. Knowingthis can create better force application creating a more reliable throw, and Less breakage overall. Atlatl works a lot like the actions describedin archers paradox, the arrow bends when force is applied. in the example of carbon fiber this a worry because they are shooting arrows with a lot more force and speed, and going against theflexion would result in exploding arrows. In the case of atlatls, there is more force being applied to a greater amount of mass, So a thrower knowing which way the dart flexes is a good thing.
Now that said, a dart that looks more like a boomerang would be bad and would cause another set of issues.
A Little is good, a lot is bad.
Points are good, "they extend the life of the dart", they also are a little weight on the front of the dart.

YIS
Ursus Apicius

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 10:52 AM JAMES FRAILEY<seamusmcray at gmail.com>wrote:
> Greetings Atlantian Archers. It has come to my attention that there are very little guidelines about Atlatl and equipment documented. Also I see that there is some marketing of Atlatl equipment from such sources as 3-River Archery. (https://www.3riversarchery.com/carbon-express-atlatl-kit.html)
>  
> My opinion is I am OK with modern material for Atlatls but I am not OK with modern materials such as carbon darts. I view this the same way we allow modern material for bows and not arrows. My suggestion below for our Target Archery Handbook.
>  
> "Atlatl
> • Inspection of equipment will in general be the same as for archery equipment.
> • Atlatls and darts should be constructed to resemble materials and equipment that existed in-period. Natural materials like wood and bamboo are recommended. In the Kingdom of Atlantia, darts cannot be used that are made of carbon fiber or any other modern materials.
> • Darts should be reasonably straight with fletches of feathers, paper, or leather. Points are optional, but if used must be securely fastened to the dart.
> • The atlatl itself will be smooth and free of cracks, warps, and bends so as not to endanger the user or others."
>  
> So, since I am not King, Queen or the Earl Marshal I am not the last say in this. I welcome all reasonable dialog in regards to crafting guidelines. Please contribute especially those with expertise with this equipment.peter
>  
> I look forward to some dialog over this matter. Thank you.
>  
> In service,
>  
> Baron Seamus McRay
> Master of the Pelican
> Atlantia Archery DEM
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