[Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 22

Wed Sep 23 11:43:49 PDT 2015

Greetings Brothers and Sisters of the Bow,
What I have to add to the conversation may or may not be of value, but what the heck...
As TA Range Marshal at Stierbach Baronial Birthday this past June we had plans for mounted archery (the EQTA only got cut due to time constraints when court was moved up significantly, not because of any safety issues or other issues from EQ or TA).  The way EQTA was incorporated was a joint venture between myself the event EQ marshal who also happens to shoot archery (although not a TA marshal). 
Regarding the question of disagreement between the EQ marshal and the TA marshal on the range.... The way her and I set out to run the range was to set up my archery range with lanes for EQ.  She advised on the lanes and their EQ specific safety zones.  I then backed that into my TA range and my safety zones.  Her and I discussed and agreed that she would be the EQ marshal present and I would be the TA marshal present.  Meaning, if I saw a TA safety issue, I called it.  Being ignorant of EQ regulations, she was responsible for calling EQ issues or holds (clearly, anyone can call a hold, but the buck stopped with her and I).  We also agreed ahead of time that the horses and riders being guests on the TA range meant that *my* say was final on *my* range.  I did not foresee any major issues, because her and I are both safety conscious, and I am confident we would have erred on the side of caution and backed each other up.  
All of that said, I would like to see an add-on to the marshal classes for both TA and EQ that bring in the other discipline to get a safety 101 on each other's art for just such events so that I would have been informed and knowledgeable about the calls she would be making regarding the horses and vice versa.  I do not feel I need to get a warrant in EQ to assist with EQTA, BUT taking the safety class would sure be helpful.  
Maybe taking the safety class and passing the test but not doing three events is a happy-medium for cross-discipline safety training?  Yours in Service,
Lady Esa inghean Donnchaidh 
Chancellor of the Exchequer of the fair Canton of Abhainn Iarthair 

     On Monday, September 21, 2015 10:01 AM, "archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" <archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16 (Cameron deGrey)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:01:04 -0400
From: Cameron deGrey <camerondegrey at gmail.com>
To: Olin Bare <masterarcherolin at gmail.com>
Cc: archers <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16
Message-ID:
    <CANJU4mz-mjQ48cY4JM3+uEu8Y9D2_6OXByBzk86yU25Ah+gtww at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I speak in no official capacity here and am no authority in the decisions
regarding rules when it comes to EQTA. Im working on NO inside knowledge
and this is all personal opinion.

I think the thrust of the argument (speaking without inside knowledge) is
that there have been instances that have occurred that merit attention.
This happens in all areas, not just EQ. EQ being new however, there is
caution and a wish to proceed in the most safe manner. If others are seeing
bows being pointed in dangerous directions, perhaps there are ways to
mitigate these issues.

Please remember that these issues occur even on the TA range. As soon as we
see it, we all correct it as safely, quickly, and hopefully as discreetly
as possible.

Though there is no need for authorization, there are rules, and people get
schooled on them on and off the TA range. Having a good set of rules that
errs on the side of safety isn't a bad place to start. As comfort levels
standardize and more information is learned, there can be a better
evaluation.

Dee, I know you are passionate about all your activities, perhaps having
seen these activities first hand, it might be helpful for you, or a group
to propose a draft of range rules and submit them. Or even put them out for
discussion.

I know that I am largely ignorant of EQ archery, and would like to come to
a practice and see whats being proposed or at the very least see how you
all are doing what you do. Additionally, those of us who do not ride can
find the whole concept a little daunting and or scary, in whole or part
because of our ignorance or unfamiliarity.

Im not sure that it helps the discussion to point out perceived fractures
in the community. This might be an opportunity to bring people more
together if anything. If fractures are in the TA community it is
irrelevant, you must straddle the line to shoot, period. Our differences
will not change the fact that we must be safe. In this respect, perhaps we
should leave the personal out, and the 'safe' in.

I am confident a solution exists. But we are at the beginning of this
process, and caution is merited even if it is unfounded.

Having said all of this, I am in no position of authority so you can take
what I say, and flush it all down the toilet :D

We should all be passionate, and do what we can to make sure those passions
are included in events where they safely can be.

YIS respectfully,
Lord Cameron de Grey
Or, on a bend purpure between a wheel of cheese and a squirrel sable, three
pheons palewise Or

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Olin Bare <masterarcherolin at gmail.com>
wrote:

> To all sca archers to the point,
> There are rules in place for participating in any sca event. There is no
> authorization to participate in target archery. If you were smart you might
> read some of the rules pertaining to to what you know little about without
> your  bashing of equestrians. Any event that I have attended with my horse
> for horse back  archery has had a safe and approved back stop with an
> archery Marshal present.  I am a target archery Marshal and authorized
> equestrian, authorized combat archer and authorized Spearman , all for the
> King and Queen of Atlanta.
> You might consider when you set up your range to include a spot for combat
> archers to practice since you have a need for something to do besides be
> little a part of archery in Atlanta that  needs help instead of bashing.
> The horse is part of history like it or not.
>      God praise the King and Queen,
> In service,
>    Lord Archer Bear Horseman of Rockbridge
> On Sep 20, 2015 9:54 PM, <archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send Archers mailing list submissions to
>>        archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>        archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Archers digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Equestrian Archery (John Atkins)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 21:54:05 -0400
>> From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
>> To: <jaynardone at comcast.net>
>> Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>> Message-ID: <00ac01d0f410$65ff5230$31fdf690$@triad.rr.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Absolute agreement.  If they so desperately want to do this activity then
>> THEY need to put more energy into it than simply bringing their horses to
>> events!
>>
>>
>>
>> cog
>>
>>
>>
>> From: jaynardone at comcast.net [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 9:25 PM
>> To: John Atkins
>> Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again I am in agreement with you but have yet to see anything
>> serious from that community. I know some others in our community have also
>> seen and have concerns as well. I dont want to wait for that day to come
>> and allow the "grey" area to continue while we wait. If I need to put
>> together a set of rules this fall, then that will be something we do
>> together and get it going so at least we have something to follow
>> collectively. If "they" dont like it, then I challenge them to come up with
>> that set you speak of and present it to me and us collectively.
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _____
>>
>> From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
>> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 8:59:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> I think, as I advised the equestrian community, THEY need to submit a set
>> of rules for doing archery at events.  At present they pass it off as ?the
>> world picking on us?.  Let me just say as the Loch Normal Highland Games
>> Longbow Champion that the SCA is VERY SERIOUS ABOUT SAFETY on the range.
>> At the highland games we all were warming up, including the one running the
>> shoot.  Then he simply leaned forward, looked down both sides of the line
>> and said ?Done??. Then we all walked down to get our arrows.  Of course I
>> dropped my bow but was THE ONLY ONE DOING SO!  The SCA is very safety
>> conscious.  The equestrian folks need to understand this and play along
>> with the rest of us.  They are not special  snowflakes who get so  side
>> step safety precautions. Sorry about that.
>>
>>
>>
>> cog
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 6:16 PM
>> To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; 'Garth Groff';
>> archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: RE: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> John, thank you for your words and I agree completely with your proposal.
>> I agree and would accept that at least someone involved in the equestrian
>> activity be an archery marshal. I would accept that. I also think we could
>> flag in our system who those marshals are.
>>
>>
>>
>> My concern is that so far at most equestrian events I have attended, this
>> has not happened. I have seen the very behavior you described with bows at
>> 45 degrees nocked and drawn, archers bouncing around with bows drawn not
>> pointed down range and my most worrisome is that the equestrian folks come
>> over and grab a TA marshal. That is not worrisome if it is pre-arranged but
>> from my past experience that has not been the case. Even at Atlantia 30th,
>> there were issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please don?t get me wrong, I am not against supporting Equestrian archery
>> and supporting its advancement. It has to be done safely and with marshals
>> that are there and willing to support it. We had a very active equestrian
>> person up our way start the MiT training, but never finished her training
>> and now has lapsed. I think we need to be flexible enough to help support
>> that community and change our language to assure it is easily doable and
>> safe for all.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Service,
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Archers [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Atkins
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:45 PM
>> To: 'Janyn Fletcher' <janynfletcher at comcast.net>; 'Garth Groff' <
>> sarahsan at embarqmail.com>; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> I would chime in here as this discussion came up at University.  When I
>> first read of all equestrian archers requirement to be TA warranted
>> marshals I thought that extreme.  Now let me back up a bit as this subject
>> is not new and one I faced during my tenure as Archery DEM.
>>
>>
>>
>> My number one concern for equestrian archery is safety.  I have a picture
>> in my mind?s eye of an equestrian archer in full draw about to release when
>> their horse rears.  By human nature that archer will release the string as
>> they begin to fall from their mount and use their hands to brace for the
>> impact.  Unfortunately this results in the high potential of a shaft being
>> loosed at 45 degrees, maximum distance of any bow, into the ?somewhere?
>> zone and very likely injuring or even killing a person!  Thus equestrian
>> archery has some extra considerations that need to be taken into account.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now back to the subject at hand ? To require every equestrian archer to
>> also be a warranted TA archer is unfair.  (Yes, I  hate that word too!)  It
>> is not required for CA or target archery participants, why then for
>> equestrian?  However there MUST be an equestrian archery marshal present
>> for activity to occur.  See points in previous paragraph above about bad
>> things happening.  Thus I believe there should be an equestrian marshal
>> warrant which is in addition to a TA warrant BUT only one marshal need be
>> present for the activity to occur.  That would be just like TA archery, CA,
>> heavy or rapier fighting.  I am also not in favor of an ?authorization
>> process? for equestrian archery participants.  The responsibility of the
>> equestrian archery marshal is to make sure the area for the activity is
>> safe, the overshoot zones are defined and safe, and that the participants
>> are safe and know all commands the marshal  may issues, i.e. ?HOLD?, ?Range
>> is clear?, etc.  They should have the ve
>>  ry same authority as TA marshals, you act like an unsafe jerk on my
>> range you get booted!  This opens the door to any TA marshal to get the
>> ?extra coupon? as equestrian marshal or equestrian only individuals to be
>> warranted as equestrian archery marshals., a warrant that includes that
>> extra ?coupon? for equestrian archery.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now having said all this, and hoping it was clear, let me shed a bit of
>> light on the equestrian community I learned this past weekend.  THEY ARE
>> NOT A COHESIE GROUP.  There is a lot of disagreement and dislike within its
>> membership.  Perhaps I was only getting one side of the discussion but I
>> was left with the impression that the equestrian community is seriously
>> fractioned at this point.  I believe that to be a major factor in any and
>> all decisions made with regards to equestrian archery.
>>
>>
>>
>> But I believe bottom line, the ?rules? for equestrian archery need to be
>> defined, written down and accepted into kingdom rules.  I encouraged this
>> when I was DEM and told the equestrian community this is what they needed
>> to do.  To my knowledge to date this has NOT been done.  For example, can
>> they shoot while the horse is moving or does the horse have to be led by
>> another person on the ground at a walk then stopped for the rider to
>> shoot?  Without rules in place like we have for ALL other martial
>> activities within the SCA and kingdom I do not believe equestrian archery
>> should occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I won?t bore the group with the horror stories I  heard about what the
>> equestrian group is doing with/about archery, but I will say I am VERY GLAD
>> I was not in attendance nor had any responsibility regarding those actions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Christophe of Grey
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Archers [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On
>> Behalf Of Janyn Fletcher
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:01 PM
>> To: 'Garth Groff'; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> Lord Mungo, I have moved this discussion to the archers list as I didn?t
>> want to lose this valuable discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the activity includes archery it falls under our Marshallate period.
>> Also you have hit it right on the head. I know at past events that had
>> equestrian archery, there was no coordination between the equestrian
>> archers and the MIC for archery as far as I am aware. The equestrian
>> activity is treated separately and I am not comfortable having equestrian
>> archers that cant marshal their own range or adding additional burden of
>> non-equestrian marshals having to marshal an equestrian activity when many
>> of us know little about it. In my mind, the solution is to require
>> equestrian archers to sit through our class and become a marshal, or if TA
>> marshals are willing, become equestrian marshals for TA activities.
>>
>>
>>
>> In any event, now that this is public I would like to hear from our
>> archery community what everyone?s thoughts are?
>>
>>
>>
>> In Service,
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Garth Groff [mailto:sarahsan at embarqmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:33 AM
>> To: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> M'Lord Janyn,
>>
>>
>>
>> Has horse archery actually been assigned to you by the Crown or the EM?
>> If so this is an archery activity, period, and we need to have a marshal
>> present at any equestrian archery event to do inspections and ensure
>> safety. You already have this authority. While this will need to be clearly
>> stated in our rules and the equestrian rules, and supported by the
>> equestrian community, it is a no-brainer. Getting everybody on board is
>> going to be the hard part, and may require more support from the EM or even
>> the crown. Cat-herding anyone? :~)
>>
>>
>>
>> If you don't have formal authority, then the equestrians may expect to
>> control this activity themselves. That would be more like combat archery
>> being under the control of heavy marshals. Then it is their problem (and
>> the EM's), not yours our ours.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ideally, a marshal supervising horse archery should also be an
>> equestrian, but there probably aren't any that are both (Grimm, maybe?).
>> For now, you may have to accept that non-equestrian TA marshals will do
>> this. Would it require special training? Probably not a bad idea. Maybe a
>> special authorization? Would it be possible to have the equestrian marshals
>> cross-trained for limited TA authority? Some of the things we do don't
>> apply, or would be different--safety zones, for example, so maybe they
>> could serve a shortened apprenticeship. If so, it needs to be stated in the
>> rules that they have no authority as marshals on a TA range.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's an interesting thought. Suppose an equestrian marshal and a TA
>> marshal disagree about something. Whose decision is final?
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if our horse archers are aware of the rule against PVC pipe
>> bows, many of which are made as horse-bows? And just curious, does your ban
>> on these bows extend to combat archery?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Aye,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mungo
>>
>> On 9/19/15 9:57 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:
>>
>> Lord Mungo, I hear your point and it is valid. I think some discussion on
>> the topic is in order. My concern is that there needs to be a current
>> marshal around when they are shooting. Most times we are not and that
>> concerns me.
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Garth Groff [mailto:sarahsan at embarqmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 4:56 AM
>> To: Janyn Fletcher  <mailto:janynfletcher at comcast.net> <
>> janynfletcher at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn,
>>
>>
>>
>> Making all the equestrian archers be marshals may be a hard sell. There
>> is one equestrian in our group who has been a combat archer and is now
>> experimenting with horse archery at major events. Will she take the time to
>> become warranted? I doubt it (though I would be pleased to train her).
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps an authorization similar to combat sports would be the better way
>> to do this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Aye,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mungo
>>
>> On 9/18/15 10:55 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:
>>
>> Good evening my Brothers and Sisters of the Bow, I also wanted to write
>> you to let you know that I have had discussions with many in our community
>> now. It seems there is some ambiguity concerning Equestrian Archery and I
>> want to correct this. So over the next few weeks I will be researching law
>> and policy and also adding a section to our handbook covering requirements
>> for Equestrian archery.
>>
>>
>>
>> Going forward I know I can say that I will require that any equestrian
>> archer to be a marshal prior to shooting mounted in our Kingdom. With the
>> issues I and others have already witnessed, we need to assure this is a
>> safe activity and those participating have the proper knowledge to safely
>> shoot mounted.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay tuned, more to come.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Service,
>>
>>
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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