[Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16

Mon Sep 21 06:04:54 PDT 2015

Just an FYI to all, I am working with a few others on further specifications regardingTW and Eq (right now, only spear is approved).  They alreadyrequire that a TW marshal check the range/throwing area, andsince there will probably be some changes for targets andother weaponry, a warranted TW marshal would have to performthe inspections (details on weapons and targets still being worked out). Dealla

---------- Original Message ----------
From: jaynardone at comcast.net
To: Olin Bare <masterarcherolin at gmail.com>
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:57:12 +0000 (UTC)

Also one last post and I will cease with this discussion. I have been in discussion with our KEM and others in the Equestrian community and after looking at the latest changes to Kingdom book of Policy, the Equestrian archers are covered by their own marshals for their various areas they practice. I would encourage everyone in both communities to continue to support each other and help assure we are all being as safe as we can be on the ranges. In Service, Janyn   From: jaynardone at comcast.net
To: "Olin Bare" <masterarcherolin at gmail.com>
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 7:33:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16
 Lord Olin, I applaud your actions to assure equestrian archery remains safe. That is whole push of our discussions here, sorry you are taking it as "bashing" because none of it is intended to be. I would ask that you keep your comments positive and making accusations and assumptions that the TA community is "bashing" anyone or uninformed is not a help in anyway. I stand by what I have seen and my comments about room to improve in the mounted archery community. The whole purpose of this discussion is to assure our ranges are safe. In Service, Janyn   From: "Olin Bare" <masterarcherolin at gmail.com>
To: "archers" <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 11:57:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 144, Issue 16
 To all sca archers to the point,
 There are rules in place for participating in any sca event. There is no authorization to participate in target archery. If you were smart you might read some of the rules pertaining to to what you know little about without your  bashing of equestrians. Any event that I have attended with my horse for horse back  archery has had a safe and approved back stop with an archery Marshal present.  I am a target archery Marshal and authorized equestrian, authorized combat archer and authorized Spearman , all for the King and Queen of Atlanta. 
 You might consider when you set up your range to include a spot for combat archers to practice since you have a need for something to do besides be little a part of archery in Atlanta that  needs help instead of bashing. The horse is part of history like it or not.
       God praise the King and Queen, 
 In service,
    Lord Archer Bear Horseman of Rockbridge
On Sep 20, 2015 9:54 PM, <archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org> wrote:
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 Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Equestrian Archery (John Atkins)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message: 1
 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 21:54:05 -0400
 From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
 To: <jaynardone at comcast.net>
 Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery
 Message-ID: <00ac01d0f410$65ff5230$31fdf690$@triad.rr.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 Absolute agreement.  If they so desperately want to do this activity then THEY need to put more energy into it than simply bringing their horses to events!

 cog

 From: jaynardone at comcast.net [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net]
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 9:25 PM
 To: John Atkins
 Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 Once again I am in agreement with you but have yet to see anything serious from that community. I know some others in our community have also seen and have concerns as well. I dont want to wait for that day to come and allow the "grey" area to continue while we wait. If I need to put together a set of rules this fall, then that will be something we do together and get it going so at least we have something to follow collectively. If "they" dont like it, then I challenge them to come up with that set you speak of and present it to me and us collectively.

 Janyn

   _____

 From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
 To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 8:59:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 I think, as I advised the equestrian community, THEY need to submit a set of rules for doing archery at events.  At present they pass it off as ?the world picking on us?.  Let me just say as the Loch Normal Highland Games Longbow Champion that the SCA is VERY SERIOUS ABOUT SAFETY on the range.  At the highland games we all were warming up, including the one running the shoot.  Then he simply leaned forward, looked down both sides of the line and said ?Done??. Then we all walked down to get our arrows.  Of course I dropped my bow but was THE ONLY ONE DOING SO!  The SCA is very safety conscious.  The equestrian folks need to understand this and play along with the rest of us.  They are not special  snowflakes who get so  side step safety precautions. Sorry about that.

 cog

 From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net]
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 6:16 PM
 To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; 'Garth Groff'; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Subject: RE: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 John, thank you for your words and I agree completely with your proposal. I agree and would accept that at least someone involved in the equestrian activity be an archery marshal. I would accept that. I also think we could flag in our system who those marshals are.

 My concern is that so far at most equestrian events I have attended, this has not happened. I have seen the very behavior you described with bows at 45 degrees nocked and drawn, archers bouncing around with bows drawn not pointed down range and my most worrisome is that the equestrian folks come over and grab a TA marshal. That is not worrisome if it is pre-arranged but from my past experience that has not been the case. Even at Atlantia 30th, there were issues.

 Please don?t get me wrong, I am not against supporting Equestrian archery and supporting its advancement. It has to be done safely and with marshals that are there and willing to support it. We had a very active equestrian person up our way start the MiT training, but never finished her training and now has lapsed. I think we need to be flexible enough to help support that community and change our language to assure it is easily doable and safe for all.

 In Service,

 Janyn

 From: Archers [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:45 PM
 To: 'Janyn Fletcher' <janynfletcher at comcast.net>; 'Garth Groff' <sarahsan at embarqmail.com>; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 I would chime in here as this discussion came up at University.  When I first read of all equestrian archers requirement to be TA warranted marshals I thought that extreme.  Now let me back up a bit as this subject is not new and one I faced during my tenure as Archery DEM.

 My number one concern for equestrian archery is safety.  I have a picture in my mind?s eye of an equestrian archer in full draw about to release when their horse rears.  By human nature that archer will release the string as they begin to fall from their mount and use their hands to brace for the impact.  Unfortunately this results in the high potential of a shaft being loosed at 45 degrees, maximum distance of any bow, into the ?somewhere? zone and very likely injuring or even killing a person!  Thus equestrian archery has some extra considerations that need to be taken into account.

 Now back to the subject at hand ? To require every equestrian archer to also be a warranted TA archer is unfair.  (Yes, I  hate that word too!)  It is not required for CA or target archery participants, why then for equestrian?  However there MUST be an equestrian archery marshal present for activity to occur.  See points in previous paragraph above about bad things happening.  Thus I believe there should be an equestrian marshal warrant which is in addition to a TA warrant BUT only one marshal need be present for the activity to occur.  That would be just like TA archery, CA, heavy or rapier fighting.  I am also not in favor of an ?authorization process? for equestrian archery participants.  The responsibility of the equestrian archery marshal is to make sure the area for the activity is safe, the overshoot zones are defined and safe, and that the participants are safe and know all commands the marshal  may issues, i.e. ?HOLD?, ?Range is clear?, etc.  They should have the ve
  ry same authority as TA marshals, you act like an unsafe jerk on my range you get booted!  This opens the door to any TA marshal to get the ?extra coupon? as equestrian marshal or equestrian only individuals to be warranted as equestrian archery marshals., a warrant that includes that extra ?coupon? for equestrian archery.

 Now having said all this, and hoping it was clear, let me shed a bit of light on the equestrian community I learned this past weekend.  THEY ARE NOT A COHESIE GROUP.  There is a lot of disagreement and dislike within its membership.  Perhaps I was only getting one side of the discussion but I was left with the impression that the equestrian community is seriously fractioned at this point.  I believe that to be a major factor in any and all decisions made with regards to equestrian archery.

 But I believe bottom line, the ?rules? for equestrian archery need to be defined, written down and accepted into kingdom rules.  I encouraged this when I was DEM and told the equestrian community this is what they needed to do.  To my knowledge to date this has NOT been done.  For example, can they shoot while the horse is moving or does the horse have to be led by another person on the ground at a walk then stopped for the rider to shoot?  Without rules in place like we have for ALL other martial activities within the SCA and kingdom I do not believe equestrian archery should occur.

 I won?t bore the group with the horror stories I  heard about what the equestrian group is doing with/about archery, but I will say I am VERY GLAD I was not in attendance nor had any responsibility regarding those actions.

 Christophe of Grey

 From: Archers [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Janyn Fletcher
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:01 PM
 To: 'Garth Groff'; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 Lord Mungo, I have moved this discussion to the archers list as I didn?t want to lose this valuable discussion.

 If the activity includes archery it falls under our Marshallate period. Also you have hit it right on the head. I know at past events that had equestrian archery, there was no coordination between the equestrian archers and the MIC for archery as far as I am aware. The equestrian activity is treated separately and I am not comfortable having equestrian archers that cant marshal their own range or adding additional burden of non-equestrian marshals having to marshal an equestrian activity when many of us know little about it. In my mind, the solution is to require equestrian archers to sit through our class and become a marshal, or if TA marshals are willing, become equestrian marshals for TA activities.

 In any event, now that this is public I would like to hear from our archery community what everyone?s thoughts are?

 In Service,

 Janyn

 From: Garth Groff [mailto:sarahsan at embarqmail.com]
 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:33 AM
 To: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher at comcast.net>
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 M'Lord Janyn,

 Has horse archery actually been assigned to you by the Crown or the EM? If so this is an archery activity, period, and we need to have a marshal present at any equestrian archery event to do inspections and ensure safety. You already have this authority. While this will need to be clearly stated in our rules and the equestrian rules, and supported by the equestrian community, it is a no-brainer. Getting everybody on board is going to be the hard part, and may require more support from the EM or even the crown. Cat-herding anyone? :~)

 If you don't have formal authority, then the equestrians may expect to control this activity themselves. That would be more like combat archery being under the control of heavy marshals. Then it is their problem (and the EM's), not yours our ours.

 Ideally, a marshal supervising horse archery should also be an equestrian, but there probably aren't any that are both (Grimm, maybe?). For now, you may have to accept that non-equestrian TA marshals will do this. Would it require special training? Probably not a bad idea. Maybe a special authorization? Would it be possible to have the equestrian marshals cross-trained for limited TA authority? Some of the things we do don't apply, or would be different--safety zones, for example, so maybe they could serve a shortened apprenticeship. If so, it needs to be stated in the rules that they have no authority as marshals on a TA range.

 Here's an interesting thought. Suppose an equestrian marshal and a TA marshal disagree about something. Whose decision is final?

 I wonder if our horse archers are aware of the rule against PVC pipe bows, many of which are made as horse-bows? And just curious, does your ban on these bows extend to combat archery?

 Yours Aye,

 Mungo

 On 9/19/15 9:57 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:

 Lord Mungo, I hear your point and it is valid. I think some discussion on the topic is in order. My concern is that there needs to be a current marshal around when they are shooting. Most times we are not and that concerns me.

 Janyn

 From: Garth Groff [mailto:sarahsan at embarqmail.com]
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 4:56 AM
 To: Janyn Fletcher  <mailto:janynfletcher at comcast.net> <janynfletcher at comcast.net>
 Subject: Re: [Archers] Equestrian Archery

 Janyn,

 Making all the equestrian archers be marshals may be a hard sell. There is one equestrian in our group who has been a combat archer and is now experimenting with horse archery at major events. Will she take the time to become warranted? I doubt it (though I would be pleased to train her).

 Perhaps an authorization similar to combat sports would be the better way to do this.

 Yours Aye,

 Mungo

 On 9/18/15 10:55 PM, Janyn Fletcher wrote:

 Good evening my Brothers and Sisters of the Bow, I also wanted to write you to let you know that I have had discussions with many in our community now. It seems there is some ambiguity concerning Equestrian Archery and I want to correct this. So over the next few weeks I will be researching law and policy and also adding a section to our handbook covering requirements for Equestrian archery.

 Going forward I know I can say that I will require that any equestrian archer to be a marshal prior to shooting mounted in our Kingdom. With the issues I and others have already witnessed, we need to assure this is a safe activity and those participating have the proper knowledge to safely shoot mounted.

 Stay tuned, more to come.

 In Service,

 Janyn

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