[Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 102, Issue 49
Heidi Wheeler-Sheppard
greenaura2black at gmail.com
Mon Mar 26 21:42:22 PDT 2012
Cog, "giggling" does the dark side have cookies??
I have seen several GBE's crossbow men and regular fantastic bowmen
where each have advantages and disadvantages.
As for bottle necking it's a hard thing to overcome especially if
there are difficulties with technical things and recovery of arrows
and points. Is there a way we can do a rolling shoot ? I mean can we
group an am and an early afternoon shoot. Start the early afternoon
groups at the am's midway point. That way there is relief for
Marshall's on the field at mid way.??
I'm just trying to figure out what will help the best :)
Karin~
Heidi Karin Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 26, 2012, at 7:24 PM,
"archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
<archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Archery bottlenecks (Jay Nardone)
> 2. An interesting observation (John Atkins)
> 3. Re: An interesting observation (Jay Nardone)
> 4. Re: An interesting observation (deedee Mail)
> 5. Re: An interesting observation (John Atkins)
> 6. Re: An interesting observation (Fen & Michelle)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:17:45 -0400
> From: "Jay Nardone" <jaynardone at comcast.net>
> To: "'John Atkins'" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>, "'Siegfried'"
> <siegfried at crossbows.biz>, <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Archery bottlenecks
> Message-ID: <01a401cd0b8d$81f87350$85e959f0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All very good discussions but I don't anticipate any real issue areas. I
> know how it ran last year and there was only one station we really had an
> issue with and we still processed over 250+ shooters in the allotted time. I
> will be watching closely this year for any potential areas of concern. With
> our marshal's team at each station we should be able to police and gauge how
> things are running based on our attendance. I know I will be focusing on
> this during the day as I walk around.
>
> Janyn, aka one of the slow cross bow shooters now :P
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 1:15 PM
> To: 'Siegfried'; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Archery bottlenecks
>
> Siegfried touches on another of my pet peeves about some shoots, tiny high
> point areas. My eyes don't see very small things beyond 40 yards. When the
> high score target is something about 1 - 2 inches in diameter at 50 - 70
> yards I consider the shot a dumb luck shot. But then I ask myself "who
> hunts squirrels at 50 - 70 yards anyway?". I would add though that targets
> can be made much more challenging without adding distance, add obstructions
> instead. i.e. Between the target and the archer is a tree. The archer must
> either shoot around the tree or make a very on line shot to hit the high
> score area. I do this kind of shot regularly on my practice range at home.
> It's fun and not hard on arrows as one might expect. For those that have
> shot SAAD when I was MIC you have shot this sort of station in the woods.
>
> cog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Siegfried
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 12:51 PM
> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Archery bottlenecks
>
> I'd actually suggest, that as COG stated, pure target design can make this
> less painful as well.
>
> The only reason a typical 'one of those crossbow shooters' tends to get that
> picky. Is when there is either 'complicated scoring' (such as "must hit
> this 3 targets before hitting target #4")
>
> Or a very small kill/extra point zone, with multiple shots allowed at it,
> where they want to be extra sure of their aim point.
>
> Solutions to this (which I think are good shoot design thoughts in general,
> as they solve many of the issues):
>
> * LARGE targets, and if you want kill or +point zones, make them BIG as
> well. So it's pretty easy to tell if you hit/missed. Make stuff more
> difficult by making it a farther shoot, not a smaller target.
>
> * If you do want something small, or a small kill zone. Only allow 1
> shot per target. IE: A standard 'hunt', with 5 animals, you get one
> shot at each. Since each target is different, an 'dead aim' style
> crossbow shooter, doesn't have a chance to sight in and take another shot
> anyway. They have to just keep moving on to the next target. And how the
> 'last one hit' isn't nearly as important.
>
> Siegfried
>
>
> On 3/26/12 11:43 AM, Jonathas wrote:
>> Jeeze Cog, you had to make it into Crossbow vs Handbow thang didn't
>> ya! ;)
>>
>> Seriously though, Cog does have a point. I had the "joy" of shooting
>> with not one of this style crossbow archer a few years back in the
>> Pennsic Master's Tourney, it was even driving their team mates crazy.
>>
>> One solution I've seen used a few places is to set a maximum time
>> limit on *ALL* stations. Just set that time limit high enough that
>> for your typical archer there is plenty of time to shoot the required
>> number of arrows, something like 15~20 seconds per arrow, so a six
>> arrow station would have about 2 minutes to shoot. Plenty of time if
>> you keep moving but not enough time if you want to over analyze every
>> shot, and no where close to a "speed/timed" shoot.
>>
>> Jonathas
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:05 AM, John Atkins <cogworks at triad.rr.com
>> <mailto:cogworks at triad.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Holly/Nuala,____
>>
>> Excellent points. I think #12 below covers it but let me expand in
>> case it didn't. Difficult or complicated scoring. The scoring
>> marshal should be able to score most shafts from 10 feet away. I
>> know that is not always possible nor the most accurate but my point
>> is there should NOT be a 10 minute discussion about whether or not
>> the shaft is worth 3 points or 4 points!____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> And not to be harsh on my crossbow buddies, but they do tend to take
>> considerably longer to shoot than the handbow folks. At Pennsic it
>> is quite typical for a corssbowman to shoot, then take a minute or
>> three to decide was it in or not? Should I change my aiming point?
>> We have all seen these crossbowmen take a very long time to get off
>> 6 bolts. Consider that in your target/shooting station design. Or
>> maybe the Atlantian crossbowmen could "teach" the other kingdom
>> crossbowmen how to shoot faster! J Typically very small targets at
>> distance are the cause of this bottleneck.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> And as long as we are still in the planning stages of this shoot,
>> how about an "award" for the worst score of an archer with an RR
>> average of 60 or higher? They would have to eat a bowl of that
>> "pink stuff" Colum seems to favor from the ice cream vendors.
>> Hahahahaha Sometimes I just crack myself up......____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Cog....now running from Colum...how far can he shoot?____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *From:*archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> <mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
>> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> <mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Holly Gibbons
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 26, 2012 9:21 AM
>> *To:* archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> <mailto:archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
>> *Subject:* [Archers] Archery bottlenecks____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Greetings, archers! Some thoughts on targets for St. Sebastian's and
>> the issue of bottlenecks. . .____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> In our experience, there are different of kinds of bottlenecks.
>> Here's just a sampling below with a bunch of examples and you all
>> can think of many more. Everyone of us has seen these bottlenecks
>> at our shoots, some of which can be easily avoided by rewriting the
>> target instructions or by physical adjustments. Usually if it's a
>> normal shoot these things don't cause a terrible problem, but for a
>> large shoot like St. Sebastian's, it's wise to think carefully about
>> every one of these possibilities. Some target ideas are fantastic
>> and clever but just will not be a good idea for St.
>> Sebastian's.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> The first and most common kind of bottleneck is caused by the number
>> of archers who can shoot or retrieve at a time:____
>>
>> 1. stations that require shooters to go one at a time or minimize
>> the numbers of shooters at a time (like 2 at a time)____
>>
>> 2. stations that require retrieving arrows after only one or two
>> shooters____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> The second kind of bottleneck is a target/range design
>> bottleneck:____
>>
>> 3. targets that are complicated to "reset" physically____
>>
>> 4. stations where a lot of arrows get lost____
>>
>> 5. target designs where pulling arrows is physically difficult
>> ____
>>
>> 6. stations where it is physically difficult to get on and off the
>> shooting line____
>>
>> 7. targets with some kind of mechanical or physical failure point,
>> like things falling off in the wind and having to be put back____
>>
>> 8. a range where several stations share a safety zone and are ganged
>> together____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> The third kind of bottleneck occurs because of the written target
>> instructions: ____
>>
>> 9. stations requiring a "target check" - - - these are usually
>> situations where you can shoot an arrow but then need to know if the
>> arrow has "hit" before deciding where to aim the next arrow____
>>
>> 10. stations that require deciphering complicated instructions
>> because everyone stands there and reads and rereads and discusses
>> the instructions instead of shooting right away____
>>
>> 11. timed stations where the timer is hard to operate or reset or
>> means only half the group shoots at a time____
>>
>> 12. complicated scoring where everyone has to count very carefully
>> or do math, which ends in much discussion____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Then there are other kinds of "human" bottlenecks:____
>>
>> 13. stations that require many arrows per archer, not timed, because
>> some folks really take their time____
>>
>> 14. children or novices____
>>
>> 15. line marshals who get distracted while people wait to
>> shoot____
>>
>> ____
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> <mailto:Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
>>
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
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>
> --
> Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
> http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Archers mailing list
> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:45:28 -0400
> From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
> To: <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: [Archers] An interesting observation
> Message-ID: <010801cd0b99$c2f04340$48d0c9c0$@triad.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I realize this subject has been beat to death many, many times, HOWEVER,
> perusing the RR scores list I see that all Grand Bowmen Elites are crossbow
> shooters. There is only 1 archer listed as a Grand Bowman Elite who is NOT
> a crossbow shooter, although he is now perverted to the dark side and listed
> again as a Grand Bowman Elite with the Devil's instrument. (Hey! It's a
> friendly joke!) So there exists a question embedded in this, why is it,
> seemingly, only crossbowmen make it to the Grand Bowman Elite
> classification? I realize every single on who is currently listed there on
> the list is a highly dedicated archer and practices, practices, practices
> and nurtures their crossbow perhaps more than some of their family members.
> But the question remains.
>
> Perhaps we could discuss this. Not looking for any diabolical, devious, or
> catastrophic solutions here, just a friendly discussion.
>
> cog
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:48:43 -0400
> From: "Jay Nardone" <jaynardone at comcast.net>
> To: "'John Atkins'" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>,
> <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
> Message-ID: <01a801cd0b9a$370c1420$a5243c60$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Well I was really on my way to GBE, only needed 5 points or so to make it
> before I got old.... Sigh....I still plan on returning to the Long Bow and
> cross that mark very soon.
>
> Janyn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:45 PM
> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: [Archers] An interesting observation
>
> I realize this subject has been beat to death many, many times, HOWEVER,
> perusing the RR scores list I see that all Grand Bowmen Elites are crossbow
> shooters. There is only 1 archer listed as a Grand Bowman Elite who is NOT
> a crossbow shooter, although he is now perverted to the dark side and listed
> again as a Grand Bowman Elite with the Devil's instrument. (Hey! It's a
> friendly joke!) So there exists a question embedded in this, why is it,
> seemingly, only crossbowmen make it to the Grand Bowman Elite
> classification? I realize every single on who is currently listed there on
> the list is a highly dedicated archer and practices, practices, practices
> and nurtures their crossbow perhaps more than some of their family members.
> But the question remains.
>
> Perhaps we could discuss this. Not looking for any diabolical, devious, or
> catastrophic solutions here, just a friendly discussion.
>
> cog
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archers mailing list
> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:05:40 -0400
> From: deedee Mail <deallac at juno.com>
> To: Jay Nardone <jaynardone at comcast.net>,
> "archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
> <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
> Message-ID: <EC83BBE3-3950-420B-AE0B-D7800904A76E at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Cog,
>
> Look at the full list. Reynard is a GBE with a recurve, and was one
> of the first. He just doesn't shoot RR's too often any more, so his rank
> doesn't show up in the active rankings. (and Henri, but he has disappeared
> from SCA activity, last I knew). There are also about 4 or 5 at the top end
> of BE, that use hand bows.
>
> Dealla
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:48 PM, "Jay Nardone" <jaynardone at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well I was really on my way to GBE, only needed 5 points or so to make it
>> before I got old.... Sigh....I still plan on returning to the Long Bow and
>> cross that mark very soon.
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:45 PM
>> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: [Archers] An interesting observation
>>
>> I realize this subject has been beat to death many, many times, HOWEVER,
>> perusing the RR scores list I see that all Grand Bowmen Elites are crossbow
>> shooters. There is only 1 archer listed as a Grand Bowman Elite who is NOT
>> a crossbow shooter, although he is now perverted to the dark side and listed
>> again as a Grand Bowman Elite with the Devil's instrument. (Hey! It's a
>> friendly joke!) So there exists a question embedded in this, why is it,
>> seemingly, only crossbowmen make it to the Grand Bowman Elite
>> classification? I realize every single on who is currently listed there on
>> the list is a highly dedicated archer and practices, practices, practices
>> and nurtures their crossbow perhaps more than some of their family members.
>> But the question remains.
>>
>> Perhaps we could discuss this. Not looking for any diabolical, devious, or
>> catastrophic solutions here, just a friendly discussion.
>>
>> cog
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:47:16 -0400
> From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
> To: "'deedee Mail'" <deallac at juno.com>, "'Jay Nardone'"
> <jaynardone at comcast.net>, <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
> Message-ID: <010e01cd0ba2$64e502f0$2eaf08d0$@triad.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All good points. Let us continue the discussion.
>
> Janyn, believe me when I say "I feel your pain" (about getting old).
>
> cog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deedee Mail [mailto:deallac at juno.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 6:06 PM
> To: Jay Nardone; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Cc: John Atkins
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
>
> Cog,
>
> Look at the full list. Reynard is a GBE with a recurve, and was one of the
> first. He just doesn't shoot RR's too often any more, so his rank doesn't
> show up in the active rankings. (and Henri, but he has disappeared from SCA
> activity, last I knew). There are also about 4 or 5 at the top end of BE,
> that use hand bows.
>
> Dealla
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:48 PM, "Jay Nardone" <jaynardone at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well I was really on my way to GBE, only needed 5 points or so to make
>> it before I got old.... Sigh....I still plan on returning to the Long
>> Bow and cross that mark very soon.
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John
>> Atkins
>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:45 PM
>> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: [Archers] An interesting observation
>>
>> I realize this subject has been beat to death many, many times,
>> HOWEVER, perusing the RR scores list I see that all Grand Bowmen
>> Elites are crossbow shooters. There is only 1 archer listed as a
>> Grand Bowman Elite who is NOT a crossbow shooter, although he is now
>> perverted to the dark side and listed again as a Grand Bowman Elite
>> with the Devil's instrument. (Hey! It's a friendly joke!) So there
>> exists a question embedded in this, why is it, seemingly, only
>> crossbowmen make it to the Grand Bowman Elite classification? I
>> realize every single on who is currently listed there on the list is a
>> highly dedicated archer and practices, practices, practices and nurtures
> their crossbow perhaps more than some of their family members.
>> But the question remains.
>>
>> Perhaps we could discuss this. Not looking for any diabolical,
>> devious, or catastrophic solutions here, just a friendly discussion.
>>
>> cog
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Fen & Michelle <mobishob at yahoo.com>
> To: deedee Mail <deallac at juno.com>, Jay Nardone
> <jaynardone at comcast.net>, "archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
> <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
> Message-ID:
> <1332804254.7707.YahooMailNeo at web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I'll be breaking into the 110s with a recurve this summer! :)? Also, Geoffry, Miles?and Aiden are postioned to take GBE too.
> ?
> One thing I would perfer - the Offiial Ranks only list your highest bow score. So people like Seamus who *also* have a GBE with handbow get overlooked because their GBE xbow score is higher. Can we change that??
> ?
> Cheers
> Fen
>
> Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.
> ?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: deedee Mail <deallac at juno.com>
> To: Jay Nardone <jaynardone at comcast.net>; "archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Archers] An interesting observation
>
> Cog,
>
> Look at the full list.? Reynard is a GBE with a recurve, and was one
> of the first.? He just doesn't shoot RR's too often any more, so his rank
> doesn't show up in the active rankings. (and Henri, but he has disappeared
> from SCA activity, last I knew).? There are also about 4 or 5 at the top end
> of BE, that use hand bows.
>
> Dealla
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 26, 2012, at 5:48 PM, "Jay Nardone" <jaynardone at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well I was really on my way to GBE, only needed 5 points or so to make it
>> before I got old.... Sigh....I still plan on returning to the Long Bow and
>> cross that mark very soon.
>>
>> Janyn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:45 PM
>> To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: [Archers] An interesting observation
>>
>> I realize this subject has been beat to death many, many times, HOWEVER,
>> perusing the RR scores list I see that all Grand Bowmen Elites are crossbow
>> shooters.? There is only 1 archer listed as a Grand Bowman Elite who is NOT
>> a crossbow shooter, although he is now perverted to the dark side and listed
>> again as a Grand Bowman Elite with the Devil's instrument.? (Hey!? It's a
>> friendly joke!)? So there exists a question embedded in this, why is it,
>> seemingly, only crossbowmen make it to the Grand Bowman Elite
>> classification?? I realize every single on who is currently listed there on
>> the list is a highly dedicated archer and practices, practices, practices
>> and nurtures their crossbow perhaps more than some of their family members.
>> But the question remains.
>>
>> Perhaps we could discuss this.? Not looking for any diabolical, devious, or
>> catastrophic solutions here, just a friendly discussion.
>>
>> cog
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Archers mailing list
>> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Archers mailing list
> Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org
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